Transcript: Accessibility - Sarah Abderemane

I'm Carlton Gibson, joined by Will Benson.

Hello, Will.

And today we've got Sarah Darriman with us.

Thank you, Sarah, for coming on.

We're really excited.

Um you're I always think you've been around for a few years in the community, one of the sort of the the newer people in the community.

And so uh for for me, I'm you know, old old man now with my walking stick.

But tell us who you are.

Tell us to tell us, you know, how did you find Django and how are we so blessed to have you?

I will try my best.

I started with uh marketing degrees.

Um I was planning to do like uh international trade, which I didn't really like it as at the end.

But um during my studies, uh I met a developer and we talked a lot since I really want to do marketing stuff.

And uh I found it really cool what he was doing, so he was explaining how it works, how we do so.

And during my studies, I have a course to do uh when you when you have to build a website but not really with code, and uh with some blocks with Dreamweaver, long Dreamweaver.

So when I finished my studies in marketing, uh I started to learn by my own with some resources on the internet.

And uh the developer I met during my internship uh helped me to to have some guidelines and and then I done a master uh in programming.

Right, okay.

I've done like my my CV in a website with free page.

I was really glad.

And uh after that I started to to do more dynamic stuff, and uh with um with school I learned uh PHP and uh so I started to do more things which is uh more dynamic and looks more more on the website you can see uh on the internet.

And um during my during my uh master uh I was studying like uh I think we say like in block release training, like we have week in uh in the school and other weeks in the company.

Okay.

So I discovered Python like that, and I really like the language, so I started to learn uh a bit more on my free time.

You get some actual real world, I'm building an application, I'm working with a company, I'm doing something that's on the ground, but you also get the kind of theoretical background, which is you know quite important and helpful.

And uh I think it's help a lot also to to have some theoretical uh since you start with nothing.

So that's also why I wanted to do uh some studies about

It's really up to you.

But when you start with that attitude of I have to take ownership of learning and deciding what to do, that's really what you keep going with it, is like you have it's up to you.

Yes.

So that's not not the worst mindset.

So it's really a nice feeling, and I think this is something uh I really wanted to to push more and learn more about.

I think I think especially if you're used to doing some other type of work to then have programming where especially with HTML CSS to start, you can do the work and then see it.

Do it, see it.

Like that that feedback loop, many jobs don't have that.

Yes.

And it's you and so that that feeling, you you chase it more, you know, it becomes harder to chase as you get older, but you still get it.

It just maybe takes I mean, Carlton, what like a couple months instead of a couple minutes to

Yeah, it depends.

Go ahead, Carlton.

You're just a community machine.

And you so you first popped up, like you know, but you're you do everything.

You but you first topped up um on my ride after joining the um accessibility team.

So you tell I've got so many questions about accessibility.

Um so let me just fire him off and then you take them in any order.

How did you get involved with it?

How did you come to think, oh, you know, I'm gonna join you know I'm gonna get involved helping Django there?

And then you know what what are your kind of tips for you know the people who aren't necessarily accessibility experts for getting into it?

Because I think it's something that's really important, but there's a lack of um I think how-tos, like you know, okay, you need these are the checklists you need to follow, or you know, perhaps they're there, but we don't know about them or I don't know.

shape to distinguish uh each um each element, and uh one one day he asked me to do uh some change a color on the pipeline and I didn't get why at the at the first instance, and uh because when you have uh, for example, uh the red color for error and the green one for um uh for the success, uh he didn't uh really

see uh the green one.

And for him, it was exactly the same, and it was horrible to see if it passed or failed.

So I changed the color in blue for him to really uh see the differences, and uh I started to learn more accessibility by that, thanks to him, and uh and uh I discovered so many stuff, and I wanted to learn more and help also other people like him.

So, this is my story with accessibility.

How am I to know what are the right colours to use?

How am I to you know how because okay, this is something I care about, I have no idea what to do.

will help you to choose um the best color for example a website or or like uh some text on the on the background.

So this is a tool I use a lot.

Uh you also have some extension on the on navigators which also help to change uh the color of the of the website.

So for example, you can enable uh uh more high contrast level uh to see how it renders, if you can see everything with uh those colors, and um also on on DevTool on each navigator, you also have uh the ability to see the level of the contrast, if it's enough or not.

Uh most of the time it's a grade from zero to one, if I'm not mistaken.

Um and uh it it will tell you if it's uh a low level or uh enough level to to to that.

So the most high level it's three hay, and the really low it's uh one hay.

What was that process?

Um initially uh I I drew open source by night, and the website uh was really annoying to me uh to see like the the white background really flashy, uh especially when it's really really late.

Uh so I started to make a dark mode and uh and uh I thought it would be useful for everyone, so so I was um doing everything on the documentation and um Tom Karink started to review my work and um and then I finished it uh at DjangoCon Europe on the sprints.

And uh then they they asked me if I want to join the team.

Because that was one of the I forget, sorry, I forget the timing.

Was that a year ago or when was that when you'd added the light and dark mode to the admin?

Was that two years ago?

I think

Yeah.

And I I remember one of the big issues was well, how can we enable configuration of this?

So you you know you had to introduce the switcher and it had to be nice and lightweight, and kind of all of all of these bits involved.

So I think it was uh uh a need for for the jungle community.

So I'm glad uh I helped for that.

Um to one thing that uh you've talked about a couple of tools there, and we talked about um the dark mode there and the the accessibility.

One thing I think it's uh in process now, perhaps you can speak to is this this um plan to add accessibility guidelines to the developer documentation um so that there might be some guidance to which tools to use or to you know what to check for.

And we'll we would like also to to add more of this um on the process of doing a PR if it's uh also be um how to say that like uh not too much work for the contributor, but also uh keep that in mind uh for someone who will use Django uh for his project.

So yeah.

A lot one of the motivations for the changes of the templates, they used to use the um the paragraph tag as the default template for form elements, but that's not accessible to screen readers.

So the move in I think five, well, between 4.1 and then 5.0 um as the final switch is um to make div templates the the the the default template because that's more um accessible to someone's screen readers.

Um you know, and numerous uh perhaps you could pick um one or two that come to mind.

I don't know if this

to have uh tags like for example section or headers to really uh get uh for the the user this is a new section or this is uh a paragraph or something else or a quote.

And this is really important uh to use that uh in order to help uh people who use screen readers to to really uh get uh the information, even uh it's uh not clear at uh at the moment.

And uh this is something we want to to push through and uh and it will help uh many people uh for that.

So there's a lot there's a a long a long road of possible changes, right?

A lot.

And um I think there are many things to to change.

Uh the the HTML as something is something we can already start to change.

There are there have been some improvements, like for example the landmarks uh which highlight uh the the different uh sections uh for the screen readers, you can move to for example to the header and then to the main content more quickly.

Um so there is uh a lot of things to do, and even for for example, there is a PR uh at the moment about links.

Uh we really want to change that, but it makes uh a lot of things to think about uh behind because uh there is a lot of links and it will change also the aspect of the admin.

So this is something also to care about, so a lot of things to to work on.

It's like, well, yeah, does this we're we sometimes feel unsure as to whether it fits this the existing style and the existing style is a bit dated, but we can't just go in and slap some pink on because that just would isn't gonna go.

I mean, how do we as a given the bandwidth we have, given the volunteer capacity we've got, how do we how do we make progress, do you think?

Uh so I think there is a moment we when we will have to break some stuff and make sure this is okay for everyone.

Uh and then we will be able to to make more moves uh on the admin uh uh about that.

I think so.

I'm kidding.

But I think yes, um this also might help um to have more more user of Django, because some people would say uh Django admin is a bit ugly.

And um I think this is something uh which also helps to have more Django users, and it it's also cool to have uh a nice admin when you work on even if it's not uh something which is uh uh designed for uh the end users, uh I would say like the customers, but uh as a developer it's uh it's really nice to have that, espe

cially as we have a lot of uh projects at the moment who have like uh fresh nice admin and stuff like that.

So to to avoid uh to have Django too much outdated, I would say.

And so from a marketing perspective, that's not the best look.

I mean, we're we're used to it and we understand why, but so

And when we present the admin, they were like uh a blank face.

Like, okay, uh um I'm not a big fan of the admin, but if it's work, I'm fine with that.

I do well, do you know are there any examples of frameworks that that have an admin that is designed better, or is it because I don't know how many other web frameworks have an admin, really?

Is there an easy comparison?

Like we should look be more like something else?

And uh it's really nice, and maybe it can be an inspiration, but as it's not built the same way, I'm not sure it's really helpful.

I mean, we had um Laravel and PHP really seems to me, anecdotally, to have to be the place where we look for inspiration as opposed to Ruby on Rails.

Like Ruby on Rails is still out there, but it's I think not I would feel comfortable saying the last five years I I hear a lot more about Laravel and as being used and also in terms of like that's something Django should look at in terms of where we want to go as opposed to Rails.

So that's been interesting.

Um I I don't know so much uh really on rays, so it's hard for me to to to be able to compare, but uh as PHP it's really used in France, unfortunately.

It's used everywhere, it's used everywhere.

Um we we may have um uh how do we say that like for example when I had the dark mode on uh the Django project.com there were a lot of people uh beginning to to come on the project uh asking um many many things like I feel there is there was more attraction of people since there are some changes related to the

the interface of the of the website.

So I think if we change the admin, we might have also the same, but uh for the framework.

I feel like there is this feeling that nobody really knows who decides what what happens in Django, especially the docs, but they're this sacred thing, and yeah, just to see any change, I agree completely.

It's like, oh I didn't know that was possible.

Come on,

Like it's the

It's not like there's somebody saying yes or no and this and that.

It's just not really.

We just keep it moving.

It's not like we're just saying no all the time, but there's actually things being done, which I do think lends itself to like doing these things we know we need to do.

It's just a question of who's gonna do it, and it's challenging.

But um, I mean, I'll I would say Carlton, as a former fellow for five years, I mean Django is exceptional with not breaking things, but maybe that balance could be loosened a little bit or

I think we talked a few times and there's been various conversations about whether DSF could fund some development projects.

And I think something like a refresh of the admin is something which would a need a financial you know stump because it's so much it would be so much work if it's a big project, but it would also benefit and it would be like something that we can clearly identify as yes.

There's a few sort of vague ideas.

Oh, maybe we could throw some money this way, maybe we could throw some, but actually, no, let's refresh the admin.

That would be a good concrete thing to raise some money around, you know, get a a team on and and do

Uh that story's in my head.

Okay, so if you if you wanted to take if you wanted to take the whole admin and rewrite it with crowd-based views and you know, like totally redo the entire admin, that's probably a million dollars worth of effort going in.

And Jake's now we have

I I I honestly am really skeptical about a rewrite the admin totally project.

But to to but to redo the the templates, redo, and and and then there's a layer slightly below the actual templates where you're generating the HTML.

You know what Django's like with its forms and its you know its fields and its this, that, and the other.

Well, those would need some adjustment as well for a new a new template layer.

But the that wouldn't involve rewriting all the views, rewriting all the URLs, rewriting, you know, which oh that would be a project as well.

So but like we you know getting some good front-end chops on no, let's redo the front end that I think would be feasible.

The DSF could get behind that, we as a community could get behind that, and yeah, the release when it was released, there would be a breaking change.

There's a new admin theme, so there'd have to be you know some migration path, maybe, but maybe not, maybe it's a no, there's a new admin theme, and you have to go with it, you know.

If it because maintaining backwards compatibility always means we can't ever move forwards.

I don't know.

Finger crossed.

I don't know.

If it were only templates, then sure we could just ship two.

But many people don't make those steps, and you've been helping the community in a bunch of ways to help others uh contribute to Django.

Maybe we could talk about some of those.

So Django, Django Spaces, Django Girls, Organizing DjangoCon Europe, Django Discord.

I just gave you four separate paths.

So you choose any of those four that you want to talk about to start.

Carlton and I can attest.

I mean, I've said this before, but the talk where I first saw Carlton was a talk he gave in 2017 about being a developer for the long haul.

And he talked about these things, and every year it just is more and more relevant.

So I recommend that talk if you haven't seen it.

But I'm trying to care about myself.

Um so yes.

Um uh what topic should I pick then?

How about Django Not Space?

Because this is a newer one that you're very involved with that is help having mentors and mentees and giving some guidance for people who want to contribute to Django.

How did how did that come about and where is it at now with the second cohort, right?

Um I've done a talk about that uh in Pilate Discord if you want to watch more, but um uh it was usually to to help uh people to to contribute.

Uh since I've for me I've done this on my own.

I ask a lot of questions to many people, but it's not easy for everyone to do so.

So I wanted to help for that.

Uh when uh Dawn and uh Rachel uh told me about this project.

I I told him yes, I really want to help with that.

And we started to to to build the program and uh I uh also asked uh team to join, and Sarah also joined thanks to me because I was talking on Discord, like, hey, you should come.

I think it would be nice to have you.

Um give another kind.

And uh the next court is in January.

Uh so we have made some changes, but uh we have more people, we have like 80 um 80 anti uh jungle nuts, and um we have also um if I'm not wrong, uh six uh um navigator, as we say, mentors, uh because we love space and

um so um it I think it will be uh a good a good cohort.

So um we will see how it goes really uh in January as we have a lot of more people involved, but uh I think uh it will be a really good cohort, this one.

Because that's always the problem, is that people think they need permission, but as we said, there's not necessarily someone in charge of everything.

And so you you all just did it and then said, Hey, we did this thing, can the DSF support?

Which is for so many in so many areas absolutely the way to go to not wait on the board the DSF board or someone else to give permission, but just just to do it and show that it works.

So that it's so good to see, especially having been on the board.

It's so good to see pe it's makes it so much easier.

It's just like this is a real thing, it's happening.

Do you want to support?

Right?

Instead of theoreticals, it's like nope, it's a real thing.

So I I wish this this approach could be applied to so many other things, but of course it's a huge amount of time and effort for for you and the or other organizers.

So that's that's the bit that um we had Lily Foot on recently, and sh I think I believe she's doing it again or she was open to doing it again, but was talking about the um sustainability part, right?

You can't we can't expect the same people to do the heavy lifting all the time.

Could they offer be around to help with PRs?

What's the best way to contribute if you're not you know if you're not an official navigator or an official mentee for this program?

Uh we do have um presentation and we want to to implement also office hour to to have people who would like to to talk or do pair programming or or discover something new.

And uh this is a way to do so.

Uh if you would like to ask for that and uh help, you can uh reach out to us in uh social media or in contact uh at junkone.space and uh and also me if uh if there is any question, I'm open to it.

And uh so this is one way, and we we are um we also uh care about suggestions.

So if you you have any suggestion or something you would like to to to implement or you have an idea and you would like to know if it's something possible for Django Note space, uh we we are really happy to hear about that.

Because the part of the I guess the the the Django Note space Discord is kind of a safe space, right, as well for contributors, because one of the big problems is the you know, perhaps the Django forum is a bit, you know, thin air.

It might be a bit scary or

So so this is something we would like to to keep in jungle note space, but uh we are happy to have some intervention of people uh even if it's uh occasional.

I know that you when you're not doing all these things, you're you've been at Octopus Energy for a little while, like and I think you're you're primarily focused on back end.

We've been talking a lot about more front-end things.

Um is that correct?

Um uh I'm working at Oftoc Octopus Energy France, uh, which is part of uh Octopus Energy Group.

Uh and uh I'm doing uh back-end uh back-end uh deploy uh backend stuff uh at uh at the company and I'm working on um the the tool which is uh which help um uh operational people to to to create uh contract for um for customers who want uh uh rene

wable energy and uh a lot of more tools because we are really we do care of uh green uh energy and uh renewable energy so so this is uh part of my daily job.

Like it they're thinking like, is that models, is that views, is that URLs?

Are there any um like like how does that work?

Does a manager come to you and say, we want this functionality and here's the code base, go?

Or like what are some examples of, you know, I know because I know it's so different on a huge code base, like Octopus must be, as opposed to a smaller project implementing things.

Like like what so I guess what would be is there an example of um a specific task that being a back-end developer would would entail for you?

Does that make sense?

Uh I will try to answer.

You will tell me if it's uh if it's answering to your question.

Um so um, for example uh I can have a task uh uh to to to to uh implement uh some reminders for the uh operational team to make sure to to to see when there is uh someone uh who needs to to have um how we say that um a rem

inder that she needs to to consume less energy at this time of the period for example uh and uh I I'm I'm um I'm able to implement this part for example this is a a really fake example but just to to see how it works uh this is this can be something like that as we uh are an international group uh I can work for example on uh something uh part

of another country for example uh if we we have um a new team uh in in Portugal we will have to implement everything so I will help them to implement uh all the all the platform uh all the stuff which are needed to make sure the product is uh uh uh available for all the customers they can follow their consummation and all the stuff like that

s that everybody's everybody not everybody but a lot of people are working there now

really like in this company is uh even if we are split all around the world we are still uh really friendly uh trying to help each other and uh really uh being like a team uh and uh we want to to help uh other people to grow and even if it's a big group uh we are still uh having this uh as you can have in a

small team uh for example and uh for sure uh octopus it's really nice

o or Python

approximately uh so we no no um you can go well

jango community in France so it's hard to have speaker each month maybe later but uh right now it's uh not so easy and uh so that's why I also organize uh that uh only uh three uh each three months and uh but uh maybe later we will have more speakers willing to to speak as a meetup but uh that's also why we don't have

so much.

It's it's a lot of work

There was here in Boston there was one that was monthly for a number of years and then COVID hit and there were two organizers who did all most of the work and you know one moved away and I do think it doesn't need to be monthly as Carlton was saying like just having one is such a benefit because I've met so yeah it's such a resource but it is it is so much work right like often at least here in Boston I've found there'll be one company that will be willing to host on a somewhat regular basis and then

maybe another company that donates pizza or something.

But it's yeah it's a lot of work to do but it's it's a huge benefit to the community for sure.

You're not even in the UK and and uh uh I told him there are no Django meetup at the moment in Paris so uh this is also why I created uh this one but um uh I'm I think uh despite uh all the work we had uh for for organizing it um I really liked uh to to see

all the people during the meetup and uh networking seeing each other and there is also some friends who come and see each other for a long time like hey how you been it's been a while it's really nice to see you so this is uh something which uh really helps also to to organize those event um uh when uh when you see other people gathering at the same time uh in one place but

VID I've been threatening to get the train to Paris and it's still on my list of things I really want to do but haven't actually done.

But when I when I do, can I come?

Can I come to your meetup?

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah what for the Galen Yeah for myself.

Like I s in the docs we do have a link to a local Django communities section um which is empty at the moment but um that's something that I'm curious what your thoughts are Sarah like do you find I find that people just don't know about things because we don't we Django don't have an email service or maybe the website doesn't have people to put the time into marketing but we could do a better job of of telling people about all the things that are happening.

So I guess my question to you would be like how how are you how are you finding how do people find the Django Django Paris meetup?

What were you able to email people?

Like was it just t like word of mouth or how how do you let people know that you know because Paris is a big city right but how do you how do you get in touch with everyone?

ching uh on this platform but uh I agree with you since uh we don't have enough I think communication and marketing about uh about that like uh I try to for Django meetup Paris to to put the event on uh a local um association uh to uh which is part of uh it'

s part of the Python French association uh to to let people know that I'm organizing a Django event.

Uh so I'm trying to put the the the event uh where there is someplace related to Django or or Python, but um it's it's hard to reach out to people when you are not sure when where they're they see the the event and uh uh where the best way to reach them.

I almost wonder if

There was a you know an unfixed security issue and it been left and it had been idled and it was getting spam and in the end it had to be shut down.

But we need something like that.

And it could be something that uh, you know, I don't know, the Django Developers Survey, or we try to I'm trying to think of a commute a resource that the DSF could manage in a f in a non-expensive way so that there is this pool of people, because we know you know we know millions of people are using Django, and then some percentage wanna would would be open to contact.

I mean, for example, the Django News newsletter is one tool, but it's in English, and it's every week, and you know, it has almost 4,000 people, but that's a drop in the bucket.

Whereas I'm sure there's well, I don't know, I don't know if it's four million, but there's a lot more people who maybe would want to hear occasionally from Django in quotes itself about the stuff.

I don't know.

It's not a new idea, but I wonder if you know if if we put it put a back end, if there's a way to ask people to voluntarily submit information, then they can be somehow organizers in their area can contact them.

I don't know.

And um I hope at uh some point uh in the community local page there is uh there will be the list of everything.

But um yeah, I think uh um right now uh the best place to to ask uh for for things and events uh is Discord to me, but maybe there are other places uh which will work, but I'm not sure everyone is aware about that.

Like there's some on the forum, some on the Discord, some I don't know where.

It's difficult.

Is there anything you wanted to discuss while you're here?

Any questions for us?

But well, I'll give you we've s you've sort of answered it, but I'll one question we like to ask recently is so if you have a magic wand, uh say separate from accessibility, what is something you'd like to change in Django?

So you just make it so.

Is there something that jumps jumps to mind that you would like to change or improve with Django itself?

And well, Carl Carlton, uh we didn't get a chance to put this on air, but you've been doing some work on authentication.

I think it's it's kind of like a um a tar pit for users.

I think the vast majority of users don't need to customize the central auth model ever.

What they need is a profile model, and they need to have that separate from the central auth model because your central auth model is fetched from the database on every single request.

And so if you've got like my bio and my this and my that and my that, you end up with 50 fields being fetched from the database every single request.

And it's like, no, that's not what the central auth model is about.

The central auth model is about identifying the user for this request, and that's something which I think Django should have just kept secret.

I understand why historically it didn't.

So if the thing that I would fix in Django if I had a magic wand was to make um the unique the email field unique um on Django Contrib models user so that people can do login with email, which was all they ever really wanted, and then perhaps drop those, the first name, last name fields, and move those to a profile model, and then separate the auth from the profile.

And so Django would keep auth, which it really is a difficult topic, and it really is one you don't want to get wrong, and it really is a battery that Django should provide.

Keep that in Django and then give us you know a clear pattern for if you need profile data, this is how you do it.

That's what I think I would fix if I had a magic one.

Um, but anyways, uh you know, it's it's a big question, Sarah, so it's okay if you can't think of one, but that's one that Carlton in particular is um

And it's like why, you know, yeah.

Why is my request like, well, you see what your auth model's doing and every single request in the middleware there, right?

Anyway.

Well would what would well I'll I'll I'll take a stat.

I haven't done this in a while.

I think for me, I mean you know, this is not a new idea, but like the serialization API story, you know, there's really interesting things happening with Django Ninja.

Um DRF is largely feature complete.

There's some things we we Django could improve.

Carlton has some specific ideas, but the fact that that is not baked into Django itself, and I know we want to keep Django Core small, but it really feels like APIs should be within core in some way.

So that would be my my quick take.

Um so we should be able to hand we should be able to handle um if that could when that's complete, however long that takes, but we should be able to handle JSON requests with the request object without having to need extras, and that would be nice.

And then exactly what we do about you know the equivalent of serializers or um DRF's um generic views, but that's an interesting question to resolve over the next few years.

Come on, Sarah, there must be one thing that when you're when you're sat there and you're you're busy banging away at your computer and you're like, this is really annoying.

Why do I have to do this every time?

What's that thing?

What's that itch?

So yes, I agree to.

And uh, but I I don't have uh anything in mind.

Okay.

Have you had a chance to play with HTMX?

Do you have any thoughts on on that?

I didn't I didn't have time.

Uh I just uh watched the documentation and uh have done as many people like, oh I really need to try out, and I didn't have time.

But uh but I know some friends uh who used it uh uh um also in in France they replaced uh everything uh in front end to like for for example they they had React and they they changed to HTMX and uh they they seem really happy with that, so seems to be really promising.

So hopefully I will uh have some time to to try.

Well, anyways, yeah, lots lots lots going on, lots um and you know we didn't really talk about Django Girls, Sarah, or organizing DjangoCon Europe, but Carlton and I both had a chance to to see you there, as well as the other organizers, and that was that was really a great conference.

I mean, I loved being in Edinburgh and my first DjangoCon Europe.

I finally got to meet all these people I'd only known about online.

So that was so thank you for your work on that.

And uh and I was happy also to see you for the first time at DjangoCon Europe.

So it's really nice to see uh everyone you have talked to uh online uh in real life.

And and we you know, we we've said this before, but we need Django We needs this.

Like there's so much work that is done, and you know, once twice a year to actually just see it person face to face, you know, I always come away with more energy from the conference.

Carlton, wrap wrap us up here.

I'm just babbling.

Or you maybe know, it might, but if there is no

you can go to the forum and uh we will be happy to answer.

And uh also um I'm trying to write uh accessibility checklist uh from my point of view and hopefully I will be able to share it soonish.

So uh this is something uh we which could help uh people who are not aware of everything to to be able to to do some checks on accessibility uh from their own.

I'm such a huge fan of checklists I think checklists to rule them all.

So all right well thank you so much for taking the time to come on really appreciate it and all the work you've been doing.

It's it's truly like gives me inspir like I get excited it's just seeing you know the SarahCon conference that we should have you and Sarah Boyce and many others who just come in like a breath of fresh air and just just do stuff and just uh it's I can't tell you how refreshing it is to to see that because during COVID sometimes it felt like we were hanging on a little tight but now I feel a lot more relieved.

So thank you for all that.

Right let's call it quick um with Django chat um join us next time bye bye bye bye bye