Transcript: Kraken - Çağıl Uluşahin Sönmez

I'm Carlton Gibson joined us everybody by Will Vinson.

Hello, Will.

Hello, Will.

Welcome to the show, Charles.

How are you?

How are you?

Excited to talk with you.

Um we I've just given you a whole load of things that you are, but tell us for the audience, who are you?

How how do you how did you find Django?

What's your what's your origin story?

We always I'll start with that.

So let's go there.

Um Yeah, yeah.

Well um I'm Chill.

I'm a uh software developer of uh over 20 years almost now.

Uh uh I'm a uh computer science degree, uh also uh master's and PhD.

Um so nothing um surprising there.

Um and

That's you know okay.

Oh very good, very good, very good.

I didn't know PHP.

Good enough.

I've totally known what you're describing.

What would you think?

It's could it's a big question when we just say, like, what's your origin story?

Start talking.

Let me be more specific.

So did you work with computers before you went to university, or is that something you discovered there?

I didn't even know it was called computer science back then, but uh by like by chance I got into the computer science department in big university, and I think that was the best thing happened to me.

Uh I love programming.

Uh I love Django.

I I think it was uh around third or fourth grade of uni when I um first got exposed to Django.

It was the web programming course.

But uh when I first built my app, I I remember it very well.

I was a faculty member uh and we were like I've been asked to build this web page for students to submit their uh assignments.

I don't know why, because we were using Moodle, a good CRM uh for like everything course management.

I don't like what why why we couldn't use it, I I really don't remember.

And I think like 2007, uh 2008.

I uh I I worked again, like uh not full-time.

Uh I worked at Marcophony, uh built their authentication system, it was a Django-powered app.

Uh it it it then turned out a really, really big company, like uh I don't know, uh 20-30 uh thousands of employees.

Uh it was a big, big hit.

It was a Turkish e-commerce company.

So yeah, since 2008, I would say, I am using Django.

What's your sort of what what was the bit that you remember building?

You think, oh yeah, I like this.

Like, and like they I was super lucky.

I like we they started teaching us Python on the first day of uni.

If you if you build a good curve and if you build a good software, uh then like you you you get the other people like like uh good people, people interested, people like like mind-minded around you.

So yeah, uh then like then I stayed in faculty as a faculty member.

Uh so uh I was saying um

Uh but like end of third year or something, like what can I build with all that knowledge?

Like it was almost impossible to build like uh desktop applications, and then suddenly I met with Django, like with just like 10, 20, I don't know, maximum 15, 50 lines of code, bam, you have a website working with like a database connection and everything.

Uh fascinating.

I uh like that that's it.

This this is my thing.

So the the reason I I wanted to ask that, I want to ask all this time later, do you think Django still got that?

Um I might like uh my position in life has changed.

Uh I have

Uh uh but I think I think Django still has it.

Uh maybe maybe not as like uh this incredible uh framework that works super easy out of box for it for even a beginner with no uh previous uh web development web application uh experience.

But with all the um ecosystem uh community uh knowledge, uh inspiration, uh I think it is actually more than what it used to be.

Uh what were you building at that age, right?

Because I have like I I have an 11-year-old daughter, and I can't even think of anything she would want to build on a computer now, let alone back then.

But there must have been something that like like we often hear with guests that you know maybe it was building video games or they had a parent who exposed them to it.

It must have been something, right, that hooked you in at that age.

So when I was 10 years old, it was only me who had a la like a desktop uh around my friends at their home.

I wasn't building any any application.

I was just like you like using it for

That's normal.

Uh what is funny is uh as a teenager I didn't know uh that um using a desktop is different than what programming is about.

So like back then I was super naive and like thinking so being able to solve uh problems with Windows, like uh you probably remember like sometimes even connecting the internet was a challenge.

Then that and super naively, I thought, like, okay, that's it.

I don't need to know anything more about uh computers or programming.

Uh that's it.

Like uh uh maybe there are people who think like programming is about TikTok, uh like content or

And it's like, but this that stuff's important, but surely you could mention, you know, I don't know, one of these development environments, Python being the one I would, you know, if I was running that course, I would throw it in.

But there are plenty of others.

So uh when I first started my uh bachelor uh bachelor's degree, um Chris Stephenson, our head of engineering uh uh Cambridge alumni, uh I think again it was first three weeks he told us like computer science, like computers can use you, or you can use computers.

And some of those other like uh I don't want to give a name because I'm not super um at any other framework, but sometimes I play with some other uh maybe easy to say some let's say Microsoft programming.

I feel like they are using like uh I don't know if you if you know what I mean.

It's like you've gotta do it this way, and it's part of the class-based thingy bought, but uh I don't know.

So you need to pick carefully, and I think Jang Jenga and all the Python ecosystem, we are super lucky about that.

So I was programming um at the time Objective C, and there's a lot of boilerplate, and you know, at the time there was a lot of boilerplate, there's a lot of long method names, there's a lot of class construction before you get to write the code you get want to write.

And you fire up a Python script and it's like I just want to bang it out, and it's like 20 lines, and it's like, oh yeah, and it does exactly what I want.

And you know, it might be a throwaway script, but you'd never get that expressiveness from you know one of these other environments.

I see like deep neural networks and stuff.

This is back you know, a while ago.

Yeah, you know, what what what was that like, right?

Because you were you were a little bit early to that party, right?

I mean, what do you what was what was the appeals?

What was it like studying that then?

And then what do you make of you know the current wor Chat GPT world, which is sort of like all that promise now actually being actualized?

Uh but that's the thing.

Uh my PhD uh uh uh was between uh 2013 and 2018.

Uh yeah, I did a lot of work about uh deep learning, um deep neural networks, uh CNNs in particular.

Uh but I also have uh a slightly still Bernard from MPHD.

To be honest, like I didn't I didn't finish my PhD.

Uh I like it was one of the top toughest decisions I did.

Uh after five years uh into my PhD and moving to London, I I decided to uh leave it.

Um so uh but yeah uh super hot topics uh lately and uh as a as a researcher in the area um yeah the story is a bit different from my perspective.

Uh I think that um yeah there there there are uh great success and improvements on the field, uh but it's not magic.

Like uh it's not it's not working 100%.

It's it's not even working 80% of the time.

Uh but that's not uh how they mark like do the marketing to you.

Uh no.

And that's that's actually why I didn't want to like uh after my PhD, I didn't want to work around um um data science or data engineering or what they call it at the moment.

Uh it's mostly about uh using the tools of like uh big companies.

Uh so you like um and you need to like uh you need to go with uh how good their performance is.

It's it's not like from my perspective, I was building models and um evaluat systems, and like uh as a researcher, that's what you need to do.

You need to put something new on top of what's done.

But in the industry, it's more like using that output at the moment, and I see only little progress from like little companies other than the big ones on improving on that.

But with the with the data uh all those big companies have, it's actually now easier to produce better results, and uh that's what we are enjoying at the moment.

Uh and of course they will keep getting more and more and more and more data and uh will improve uh the results.

Uh but still I I don't like um I'm yeah, let's say I'm a bit skeptical on the RIN being too much into the topic.

Uh but yeah, no, I I quite like being on the uh web application development side of things rather than uh uh AI, let's say.

Maybe yeah, super unpopular opinion.

One of the biggest users of Django, you know, high, high, high traffic, really stressing it to its limit, etc.

It's quite exciting.

So tell us about Kraken, or

I I don't know, maybe bigger than Instagram now, biggest Django shop.

Uh and uh yeah, I've been working in Kraken Tech as a lead backend engineer since uh for almost two years now.

Um and uh we have approximately 900 engineers.

Under Kraken Tech.

This includes data engineers, back end, front end, uh customer success engineers, etc.

I would say roughly uh we have uh five, six hundred uh Python uh developers globally.

So uh that is why it looks like we are hiring uh everybody.

Um and we are we have uh like 10 like we are uh we have engineering uh we are tech team in 10 different countries uh now.

Uh so uh headquarters of uh engineering team is uh UK London, uh but then uh uh from Tokyo to Australia, uh many cities, uh Germany, Italy, France, Spain, uh

And and even Dubai now.

Um so uh yeah, and I don't know, I quite like it.

I see Kraken Tech as the uh feature Google in terms of like technology, like building technology.

Uh and I quite like uh our engineering culture, that's uh that's why I joined the team.

Of course, every company, every engineering team have uh like I think stay uh degrade and and it's improving on other other points, but yeah, it's uh it's quite a uh good team.

Uh I'm working, like the wider team I'm working with.

We have uh good conventions, good culture.

I think that's why uh retention uh rates are super uh low and easy to uh convince uh my other fellow Django Python developers who are fantastic to join the team.

What's the turnover?

And if people stay, then you know, okay.

That's a good sign.

Like we are working super closely with the community.

Um uh we're using Django Python, which is the best thing about crack and Pay.

Because that usually is what happens.

I'm uh I'm curious because uh we are uh we are trying to uh upgrade and having issues with uh MyPy, which we can we can talk in detail.

Uh well because as as powerful as Django is, when a company reaches internet scale 4.1?

Currently we have um uh we have issue uh major issues with uh Django stuff and my pie.

Uh and right there's actually a team of volunteers working towards the upgrade.

Um so probably there are other smaller big issues uh blocking the upgrade, but uh it's going well.

Uh I think we are down to uh thousand issue, ten, five thousand issues.

Uh but let me remind you, it's a it's a it's a big monolith, it's a it's a big um uh repo.

Uh so yeah.

You'll fix one thing and all of a sudden a thousand of those will clear up, no?

Okay, yeah, uh so yeah, maybe that team uh can uh throw a uh good talk uh on how they upgraded from Django uh four point something to Django five point something in uh later in the year.

So I mean a a lot of the uh the issues are around Django studs and typing compatibility as you update or or not sure?

Uh but uh for example, like I remember uh from a chat from last week's uh one of the issues was uh Django uh uh object manager uh uh so I don't know you can't you can uh we Django start uh isn't willing to uh type uh objects uh of Django models, uh object model of Django models because with some not

super recent uh feature you can actually uh change the objects class of model.

I for example like like this this this one took us like weeks back in uh uh forward uh um upgrade because uh I don't remember exactly, but you need to then type it with a super unfavorable way.

Uh or like there were other there were two other alternatives.

Um so coding practices, best practices, library uh restrictions, Django features.

Uh actually they they reach out to me and ask if Django can make can change like default assignment of uh reassignment of the objects are going.

Uh I

I mean that was a super valid uh question, and uh the correct uh place to uh talk about this is the forum.

Uh as currently forums uh used over the uh uh male groups.

So I did the redirection.

I think like that's half of the uh half of my job sitting in the board, like uh uh connecting uh uh people with the correct resources or correct ways, and like making sure like we have a uh a sustainable way of doing this, as like not everybody has access to a board member.

It'd be massively interesting, I think, to get Ox with Kraken's experience about typing in Django and what you know what we can learn, what are the difficulties, and uh, is there a way forward?

I think there's you know, there's some it's kind of like a chicken and egg problem at the moment.

It's like people know that it's nice, but how do we begin?

And well, one way we can begin is by looking at a super big installation and saying, well, but you know, these are the actual problems we face, can we address some of those?

Um, I think

Uh and uh I really wish we can like work a little bit closer with the Python and Django community, like Microsoft uh does.

I mean, I know what what you uh were referring to wasn't that uh uh some kind of uh different feedback rule, but I think like we can also feed in our experience directly into the like Jang Django code base with proposals, improvements, ideas, uh

Uh but uh as every uh meet to big size company uh there's always another agenda.

But uh I think I I I like uh I'm I'm getting into uh other people's minds on that as well.

I think um yeah, soon soon we might we might have some um uh steps towards that.

Uh also like it's it's not uh Carlton, it's not just us, uh which is something uh uh okay.

You can cut this part out later.

Oh no.

Uh it's not only about Kraken Tech or uh yeah uh people in uh in the team, it's also about the Django community.

Um the ways of working, uh uh uh the ways of working is uh different.

Uh so we always uh promote uh contributions into the Django, but we don't realize it's not that easy to like uh like yes, we are all using Django and Python, uh but contributing to Django, it's it's not only time or willingness, it's also like ways of uh workings are different.

There are uh hidden conventions in the Django community, and it's not super easy for uh people who don't have any contribution background into that community to like come up with uh super uh advanced uh feature requests.

Like uh

Uh I made a uh talk uh last year in EuroPython and uh PyCon Spain about coding conventions.

Um uh I think it was the first day of EuroPython.

Uh I was in a workshop about PyTest, which is my favorite uh test suit.

Uh and uh I was listening to workshops and I just realized uh like we need like conventions for uh open source communities too.

Like uh I don't know if you're familiar with our uh coding conventions, it follows uh Google's Go coding conventions, basically just some recipes uh around best practices, the the ones that uh we get to uh uh get to do wrong often.

So that like uh it's a it's a good reminder uh and we use it uh very much during our day-to-day um uh practice as part of P mostly part of PR reviews.

Well yeah, we really need a uh convention uh for, for example, like for Django, for even like for Django Project.com, like even for small projects like Django Project.com, like what's the convention here?

Like how do we contribute?

Or like what's the preferred way of a specific thing?

That way, like uh as a first timer and again first timer doesn't necessarily mean I'm a uh junior or mid-level dev I can be like a lead dev and still be a first timer like what how how should I uh contribute to be welcome because also like over the last few years uh in most in like DjangoCon sprints or like other sprints or some other events like

I have pushed people towards contribution like more senior people and like sometimes they received uh feedback super uh surprising feedback and then like uh I started thinking uh yeah like uh motivating people to contribute contribute is step one uh then uh do we also need to like manage the communication or relationship uh after the how shall

we do it well what's the sustainable way um

how do we get because it wasn't it wasn't organized off the back of that I had an you know I did a couple of workshops which were getting contributed starting workshops at the sprints and they went well and my sort of hope is to you know that that can be something that other people will pick up the the baton on but we don't have a good omra still I think I mean the Django Nortz project the Django Nortzot Space Project is an amazing thing is to try and bring people on board and help them over these these hurdles but they're real hurdles right it's not oh

yeah I'm just gonna contribute to Django it's it's not as simple as that.

we put a lot trust to developers and like uh but still we are super organized like there are teams there are conventions uh still we have clients etc and looking at the uh open source community and uh seeing how it works uh like it's it's a it's a miracle like uh they're not paid actually they're not part of uh a team or like of

ficial teams uh they only use their like personal time and still produce such quality software so I'm I'm super uh optimistic that we can fix things forward um uh but yeah going going forward in my uh software development journey now like uh um different topics uh is are becoming my interest uh

and like different I'm looking into uh improving uh the uh ways of working of community in different ways

I think uh I I've been taught like I've been taught this community feeling by again uh the the team in my uni uh we were uh I was happily part of uh some uh free software days for years uh which was a big event uh back then in Istanbul and I I met I I met people like I'm Murdoch uh Richard Stallman and like literally um uh uh

help uh sorry what's the word chaperon yeah but that's the thing i i was I was a second or third uh great uh computer science department department was running this uh local uh uh free software days with like like a Django con Europe uh but on free software and you were having like FSF Europe uh um present or like

I'm Murdoch uh I even met Deb like Deb like Debbie of Debian uh I'm Murdoch is the uh author of uh Debian uh and I'm a long time uh Linux person since I switched to OS X a few years ago I think I I I I've been told about uh value of community and uh role models uh back then uh but

really like it was uh Jungle girls uh I was yeah I was doing my PhD back then and uh some other woman in the department uh reached out to me uh uh to organize the first ever Jungle Girls uh Istanbul and um uh over the course of uh five years we organize and help organize over 10 uh workshops in Turkey and we

build a small community of our own of uh organizers and mentors uh not not only women like a mixed a good diverse like um uh not so small group then we revive uh paistambu which uh which was a meetup group that was deserted uh I don't know how many years ago started weekly meetups like I went to uh

paistambu meetups for six months every week with my other six jungle girls uh Roman fellows and like I think I uh things things like this um uh has big impact because uh we talk about a lot about like diversity a lot about like uh feeling included uh uh it

doesn't always happen organically that's also how I become uh volunteer to become an organizer in uh London Jungle Meetup uh like yeah I spent like five years with the community in uh Istanbul before moving to London then in London of course the first thing I did was to like come to London Jungle Meetup and I was a bit disappointed because it was a big one like we don't we we we don't have that man

y people every month it was a big one or like 120 or 100 people and I was the only other woman in the room and the feeling wasn't great so I was like okay uh I need to do something to change this and like uh over the course of the years I learned if you want change you you become the change and uh yeah really I think like that six women changed the scene

and like their commitment to the meetups changed the scene uh long before they changed the scene by organizing the uh pile uh jungle workshops uh but also like yeah it works it I I tried the same thing yeah uh also uh my other co-organizers in London Jungle Meetup was super uh alliance of diversity of and like uh women representation uh in the scene so uh we work toget

her towards making the uh meetup more diverse and uh last meetup I think I like there were like uh 14 15 women out of 80 attendees uh and I I think that's like that's that's good uh one out of 100 to 15 out of 80 in

I think you know, we do well in the Python community, we do well in the Django community compared to you know how it used to be and in other other areas of tech where it's not so um open.

But where are we still failing?

What more can we do?

Like what's the like where do you think do you know what?

If we did this, it would help.

If we did that, it would help.

Because we want to keep promoting, keep working, right?

Uh we need we need like uh good role models, not necessarily women, but alive.

Yeah.

Uh but I I I can almost hear like uh you you were doing great, but I think uh you you also uh see that it wasn't super sustainable.

So we need like hundreds of counseling around, not just like one, two, three, four.

Uh we need to we need to work uh more towards it.

We need to keep it always in the in the agenda, always like in the top five priority, both on the technical uh board and on the like um uh board of directors.

Like uh that that's that's the only way we need to make sure we have um uh women all over uh the processes.

Like, for example, now we are looking for any uh fellows, and um now I'm uh a year over a year into the uh uh being a director on the board.

Uh it's time for me to like uh uh uh dig deeper into our, for example, interview process.

Do we like who who for example who writes the uh ad for the uh new fellow?

Is there enough diverse proofreaders?

Who does the selection?

Are there enough uh diverse uh like uh people in that part of the process and the last part of the process?

And I think uh having uh a diverse group of us uh help us in like help us come up with those questions uh with not everyone can like not all of us brings the same question into the table, right?

All of us will bring different questions, and more diverse we are, more quest, more different questions, more different perspectives, uh hopefully towards improving, uh and hopefully towards on uh uh to the constructive side of the uh things.

Uh but yeah, um diversity is the key to diversity.

You I you said that I you know I was welcoming and whatnot.

I I spent the whole time while I was a fellow trying to sh bang the drum of getting more contributors from different areas of the community because you you know you go and stand at a Django con, you stand on stage and you look at the the audience, it's quite a diverse audience, but then the contributor base is still the same white English-speaking men, and that's not you know it's not to criticize anybody, but it's largely that way.

And I always felt like that.

I always stood there going, come on, you know, come and help, but I'm a white English-speaking man, and it's like I can't stand there and increase prove things.

I can try to say you're welcome, I can put out a welcome map, but it doesn't change anything because it I'm not the right person.

We need allies.

I like my my role models, there are great women, but also like great male.

Uh allies without them, like we can't we can't we can't we can't make this work.

I don't know, maybe we need to build a like bigger feedback room.

I don't know if you know of your impact.

Uh uh all the efforts you put in actually had a lot of impact in in the community.

And um, for example, we changed the um uh I don't know if you uh have seen uh uh so the uh DSF membership uh guidance has changed.

Now uh community contributions uh as stated as uh uh valuable as code contributions, and I think that's a big milestone.

We need to start um uh uh giving those people uh some credit uh because they're like they're build they're building the future of the community, they're building the uh next generation of contributors.

Uh it's it's not any less than code contribution, and I I I tell this uh from uh uh like engineering management perspective.

I'm I'm a hands-on um tech lead.

Uh so like uh my 30 percent is hands-on, uh 40% is uh people management, and other 30% is just uh project management networking, we're just

I don't want to quit hands-on uh development because that has a big impact.

Like if you don't have uh contributors, Django will not improve, but also if you don't have uh people um running the community, uh I I also don't yeah.

Uh Django how we can improve further.

It really isn't.

It's you know that's yeah, that's one part of it.

It's a good framework, it's great for building your web apps, but you know, there are other options out there.

So why do we keep going with Django?

Well because there's more to it than just the web framework.

So you can come in and and be on the board and do a lot of code, but the it shouldn't be impl like it shouldn't be expected that you do that indefinitely because people do burn out.

So one thing I've been happy to see, and I guess Carlton and I are both living, is having been very actively involved and then stepping away a little bit, but still being able to contribute and help so that there's a people can see the ramp and the process where you can still be part of the community, but you don't always have to be driving the change because it's unrealistic for someone to to do that all the time, right?

So the things you're doing right now, I mean I hope you keep doing these for years and years, but maybe you just want to attend Django London.

You don't have to be the organizer for forever because you won't be able to maintain that, right?

So I think it's also important to for people to see that there's an option other than just stepping 100% away and not going to conferences and not contributing, which is what I have seen with some previous generation people.

Instead, there's a way to be involved but less involved, if that makes sense.

And also uh those are things that I I keep thinking a lot lately.

Um but but but

It's that you should

You don't you don't you're you're not the real you used to be like 10 years ago.

I'm not the church, I used to be ten years ago.

Like I like it was a challenge to build, for example, the community in Istanbul, the community in London, or like I I put a lot of effort into that, but like of course it's not the same as it was six years ago for me.

I I I I'll reach out of ideas.

Uh I think community had enough leadership from uh from me.

Um at some point will be a good time for me to step down and for someone else with more enthusiasm and more energy to come in and share their uh wisdom, ideas, uh, energy, motivation, time.

Uh but how do we how do we keep the loop?

How do we motivate people?

Uh now uh maybe it's time at least for me uh to think more about uh those things.

Uh yeah.

I don't know, I I think I can call myself an old timely now.

Uh we also need to see see see the future, like uh uh what is it for me in in 10 years' time?

No, entirely.

now I'm very active and trying to help like I just gave a talk helping find speakers because there has been that period of rejuvenation or of of rest on what you know for me and yeah it's not you can do that right that should be the cycle right you're very active and out out there and then you step away a little bit so it's um I can under I'm I'm now living that right where for a while I thought okay I need to take a break from the local conferences but now I'm like no I really want to do it and I have the energy so it

's good to not just say these things but live these things.

So I feel like I'm living living that a little bit um but it's a lot of work right even you know we're we we've only had one meetup um and we're gonna have more and more and more but even even in Boston which is a big programming town it just takes I don't think I can go weekly for six months but you know it takes a lot of effort to get it off the ground and then you find but then you find these people who say I I feel like every meetup I meet someone who's been using Django for a long time at a company

I didn't even know of that's quite large and they say oh I didn't even know about the community and yet they're using Django every day.

So it helps yeah helps bring things together.

I was like can you make a list of all the like Django meetups globally so we can like put it on the website he prepared the list then in the Django Con sprints uh Dave Turner actually uh again from uh crack and tech uh worked on the um uh page uh and like uh the back end required to display it on the uh Django project website and I think recently Sara

h uh filled in uh the UN and now we have uh a good list which which we need to improve and uh keep maintaining list of like local Django um communities meetups uh which I think is uh one of the next steps that the SF should be focusing on uh like how we can improve how we can help and contribute to local communities.

So if there's a saying on the Django website that's kind of handy.

and uh there are great communities there are great people uh it's important that uh we build a better connection yeah but you're hearing my one I can't keep talking about this and no but

inated like just because it's that's the old base and there are so many users around the world and what can we do to facilitate them and B connect with them it's ah

Obviously having having showing showcasing the meetups is is one but are there like what are we what are Carlton and I not seeing as you know stereotypical Django contributors?

es I think we're going to start with uh uh Turkish and uh French uh I'm 100% sure about the second language I know about Turkish because I volunteered for it uh yeah I I being on the board as a Turkish woman is my first step I don't know we need to like uh conferences uh uh um has actually a big uh impact on the

community um I saw in your notes about my talk in DjangoCon yes uh that's actually a good example so that talk uh um was on a topic that I wasn't super comfortable with we uh I I led the team building uh a mobile backend with Django for the first time and I was super aware like um if you're doing um a NIV thing for the first time uh your

lesson learns are super fresh I wanted to give the talk even though like I wasn't an expert on the AR also like uh put a lot of extra uh information uh in mobile development with Django that I learned over the course of a year also I was a uh uh mom of a newborn uh super having super super super difficult time and I don't I I think that's the worst

talk ever I remember recording in a super difficult condition like uh I don't know Robin was in the other room crying I was having a hard time coming from a maternity leave uh but really like that talk should be there because like life is not always um flawless uh and not all the people

are great speakers or like native English speakers uh and that's that's one thing I bring into the speakers committees of the conferences I volunteer for if I do the uh that uh that task uh I try to like um uh motivate the group into not picking always the the best of the best of the talks and it's trying to see like what other like maybe the speaker is not the uh uh exper

t of the domain but like what else they can bring.

Um and sometimes you should just have like not great speakers that's that's life that's the reality that's the person uh or that's the person like sometimes working next to you.

And I don't know if that means that you know it if that we like having a channel where people who don't get accepted for a talk but still have one they want to give can be on an official Django YouTube account.

Or maybe there's a way that meetups can showcase the video and the expectation is not that it has to be in English.

So if the Django, you know, uh Istanbul meetup happens, like we should show that these things are happening and it doesn't have to be you're not forcing someone to speak a second or third language for it because it's all happening, but maybe there's a way to find it.

I mean, even just the talk I just gave, you know, we didn't record it, but I wish like I'd like to see the Django London meetup talks.

I'd and again, maybe just the fact that these talks are happening again in other countries where you're not forcing people to speak English, it would be helpful just to have it somewhere, or just say, if you are running a meetup and you want a talk to be put on a channel, like here's a way to do it.

Because the bar is the bar is is too high for the Django Con events, I think.

There's way more people who want to talk than there are spaces for them, and the community's yeah, bigger than that.

They have like, I don't know, 500 speaking slots or something like this.

It's like six uh six rooms going for four days.

Uh I mean But we like we still need to hear from uh those speakers too.

So uh

Because I don't know, like your your talk you gave virtual.

It's a lot of work to give a virtual talk and not get any feedback, right?

We like you need that needs to be part of it, especially in real time, or maybe just having a clear way for people to give feedback because otherwise it feels like you're just giving and not receiving in the moment.

Uh but yeah, we should we should we should have uh more of those, but um yeah, I think uh we also need to improve uh not improve, but like we are we are great as a community, but need to need to still still work on it.

Like uh that's that's that's the uh uh Django chat, right?

Like I I like to I like to hear more diverse speakers.

I like to hear better uh keynote speakers.

When I say better, I mean uh more diverse.

Well, I think it's just about the board or someone having the infrastructure so that it's easier for people, right?

Easier to contribute to Django, also easier to to give a talk, easier to easier to do a podcast, right?

I mean, it's not that Carlton and I are the only two Django people who should have a podcast, but it's a lot of work to do a podcast.

Like are there are there ways podcasting?

Yeah, that's true.

Yep.

Yeah, stepping up a level and thinking about you know, from an organization, how do you make it easier to do these things is important.

Um, and again, especially when it's volunteers helping volunteers volunteer, right?

Uh because I think that's that's the only way forward uh telling a person you can do it is the yeah, yeah, is the best way that so far I know to support them, yeah.

Okay, I think we're coming up slightly on time.

So I just wanted to peek your mind um on a technical, more technical side, perhaps we can for a few seconds.

You mentioned Py test, which is your your your favorite framework there.

Is that's your go-to, right?

Uh I I've I think I've been using it since I don't know, eight years, ten years, no, I don't remember.

And it's something I use day to day.

I think I know something about it.

Uh I never did.

Uh but yeah, uh I think it's one of those software that uh works out of uh box seamlessly, supports us to the end.

And when you ask the question, I to be honest, I don't know anything super, super, super technical about it, other than all those features that I use without even like noticing.

Parameterize.

Yeah.

Uh for example, um I write like I'm writing more tests uh since last uh six, seven years.

Um and uh I still I think there are a lot of things that I don't know uh yeah sure, sure.

That's also something that I'm looking into uh uh interview's tech test as as well.

Like the more more senior the candidate, the the more senior the developer, including myself, they they write rely more on tests and write better tests.

And uh I I think I also quite like uh um the Django uh uh package, uh uh Python Django, Django PyTest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or like because I know

No, no, no.

I just wanted to sort of get you to you know paint your picture.

You like you like it.

Give give you a more technical then uh or different one.

Octopus, you're using DRF for um is that the case?

We I this is off the record.

Uh Tom Christy joined the team.

Uh but like yeah, we do have DRF, but we don't build new endpoints using DRF.

Yeah.

Okay, go on then.

We'll wrap

Okay, so final question is always you have a magic wand.

What do you fix about Django?

It could be more than one thing, but what would you want to fix?

I wasn't prepared for this.

I should have uh one thing I will ah, I know.

Good.

What what specifically

I know for most of projects that's uh a super great feature of Django, but for us that means uh extra hidden uh database queries.

Um has been a few uh occurrences that it took uh a few clients down.

Um so we have uh super strict uh conventions towards not uh pushing uh Django objects to templates, but like uh uh half of class-based reviews uh seamlessly contributes towards that, which we don't want.

So sometimes you don't need things to happen seamlessly in our scale.

So just quickly, how do you enforce um serialization prior to this to the view?

Like in the view you're or prior to this to rendering the templates, you must be fetching all the related properties and serializing to something.

Now we we are using otters to serialize uh all the concepts and also like domain-driven design is uh big in teams in Kraken.

Uh so like um it's it's it's a team-based uh option, uh, but there are a lot of uh uh components in the um monolet that actually doesn't uh persist uh uh um maybe write data to database into domain and interface layers.

Cool.

And um didn't get into the list.

A lot of community work also isn't seen, but it should be uh celebrated because it's important.

So um I think I think we are out of time.

We have links to everything in the show notes, and thank you so much for coming on and taking the time to to chat with us.

Also, I like to celebrate you for all your contributions to the community by not only the podcast, but all all years of work.

Thank you.

Really inspired.

Bye bye.

Bye bye.