Transcript: Community & Inclusion - Kojo Idrissa

In this episode, we're joined by Kojo Idrisa to talk about his multiple roles in the Python and Django communities.

I'm Will Vincent.

I'm joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hello, everybody.

I I would start with I think anyone who goes to regular Python or Django conferences in person knows who you are.

You're a very big present uh presence on that scene.

But I don't know how much that translates to everyone else, so I hope in this show we can talk about all the work you do and for the community and highlight some of those things.

But maybe I'll just start with something uh fun that I found, which is that you and I both have MBAs, which is unusual.

Uh-huh.

And we both got into Python in 2012, which is is that correct?

Yeah.

I first dabbled with Python, I can't even remember probably 1998, like uh Python 1.52, that's the first time I really saw it.

Oh wow and started started to play with it.

But uh as I as you said, we both have MBAs.

Before I got my MBA, I had a degree in accounting.

And so as an accountant, I didn't need to be able to write code.

And so it was something I played with a little bit here and there.

But it was 2012 when I decided to be more serious about learning, becoming a better uh developer and trying to make a career change.

That's really interesting.

Like the the diff the jump from business to programming, because his it's almost like stereotypically people jump from programming into business or management or something like that.

So I could ask both of you what what's the motivation to jump into programming?

What's the motivation for that career change?

I had an interest in writing code.

Some of it also was just recognizing uh my own personality traits.

Um, I am interested in building things.

I'm interested in I have a tend to have a forward-looking personality.

And working mostly primary, I worked primarily as an accountant.

I've also worked as a university instructor.

Um, working as an accountant, a lot of what I was doing was financial accounting.

And so I it that's very sort of backwards looking.

It's like, okay, let's look at what happened last month, or let's look at what happened last year, that kind of thing.

And uh you know that just didn't really fit.

I was more interested in looking forward.

And so it was a combination of those things.

And then also some of it was the accounting work, especially in my last accounting job.

Um, you know, you've got a lot of data to work with, and there are things that can be automated and can be improved.

And so, you know, there was a sort of a convenient test bed there as far as things to work with.

Was that one of the first on the job or uh you know at at work projects that you use Python for?

Yeah, so one of the f one of the early projects that I did um was uh it was so there was a manual task that involving Excel that involved you know making a pivot table, then a lot of filter, copy, paste, filter, copy, paste, and then spent about eight or nine hours doing doing that.

And I was like, well, this is dumb.

Um and at that point, this was maybe mid-2013.

By that point I learned enough Python that I knew, okay, if I could actually just get my hands on this data, I can make this go faster.

And just started installing uh development stuff on my laptop.

Uh and and then okay, so here now I'll add a disclaimer that there are choices that I make that may or may not be right for everyone based on your risk profile.

The decision I made was I'm going to start writing code until I get caught and fired.

Um and so I wasn't super worried about that happening because like if someone came and quote unquote caught me, it wasn't as if I was like writing a game or something.

I was actually trying to automate the production of a monthly report, you know, that we used at work and make that faster.

Um, but you never know how people will respond to the company.

So that's just sort of the approach that I took as far as uh having a project to work on.

Um and I eventually ended up just quitting that job because the company was having all sorts of problems and uh going on to try to focus on um becoming a professional developer.

It's like the perfect story of like dumb development and automation and what programming's all about.

And one for me, I I will I'm always like everyone should program, everyone should program.

And everyone's like, we don't all need professional programs.

I'm like, no, you don't need to write compilers, but almost every job out there, you can do things where you're automating the manual task.

Uh the talk I'm giving that sort of touches on that touches on is called the Python spectrum, and it touches on the fact that there's a range of people who will use Python.

Some of them will be at I at one end of the spectrum, I have the the software engineer who sort of what we think of as the stereotypical professional programmer, and at the other end of the spectrum is what I call a programmer, which is someone who writes code to solve their own problems, but they might not need all the tools that the software engineer uh uses.

But all the people, and then you know, and you there's a wide range there in between, but all those people are using Python to solve a problem.

How do you attend so many conferences?

Because you were at every conference I can think of, and then some.

What what you haven't been doing that for forever, right?

I think that's since 2017.

Can you talk about how you do that, why you do that?

Um uh

Um the the why is when I became more seriously, more actively involved in the Python community.

This was again maybe around 2013.

I decided that I wanted to be able to make a contribution in some way.

And as someone who didn't have like a CS background and not a lot of experience programming, I knew it wasn't going to be a contribution by writing all the wicked code, you know, from day one.

So I felt I could make a contribution by helping to grow the community, and more specifically by trying to grow the number of contributors in the community.

And so most of the talks that I've given have had that as an underlying theme.

I haven't always done the best job of bringing that to the surface, but that's sort of the idea.

So the first conference talk I gave, the first talk I gave at a local meetup, and the first conference talk I gave, it was in 2013, and it was around that that project that I built to automate that spreadsheet task at uh my last accounting job.

And the idea there was if you want to grow contributors in the Python community, um the people that you it's you've got a larger group to choose from.

You can either try to convert existing programmers who use some other language to Python programmers and help get try to get them to contribute, or you can turn non-programmers into programmers and try to get those people to contribute.

The non-programmer population is much larger than the existing programmer population.

And the existing programmer population already has their own, you know, predilections and they already like Java or C sharp or whatever they're using.

Um, and so the idea of that talk was one, me talking about this project that I built, but also two pointing out that people who weren't programmers uh could be inspired to join the Python community because Python could actually benefit them.

Maybe you can demonstrate, well, you know, lots of people have to deal with spreadsheets.

And so if you can demonstrate here's a way, here's something that you can use to make your life easier, you're more inclined to try to use Python, and then that leads you into uh to wanting to potentially contribute.

Um and so that's been the ongoing theme, and I even in the talk that I'll give at PyGotham, the idea is that to have contributors to the Python community, you need there are two requirements.

One, someone who uses Python to solve problems for themselves so they see some value in it, and then two, those people have to feel like they're actually members of the community, because without those two things, no one's gonna spend their time or effort to make contributions.

So that's sort of a long-winded version of uh answer to the why question.

Um, why do I do all this?

And that's why uh I became a DjangoCon organizer, why I joined the Board of DAFNA for a while, why I became I created and became the DEFNA uh North American Ambassador, um, why I created the orientation thing at DjangoCon US.

Um all those all those things tie back to that common thread of wanting to grow the number of contributors in the community.

Um a certain amount of a focus on inclusion there because you if you're trying to grow contributors in the community, you want to draw from as many segments of the population as possible.

That only happens if you actually have an inclusive community culture.

Um, so those are all sort of the whys.

The hows are basically the why has caused me to sort of optimize my life around uh trying to do certain things.

So I became, I'm going to all these conferences here recently, say some since 2017 or so, because when I ran for the board of DEFNA, DEFNA is the Django Events Foundation North America.

I know I think you all have talked about them before on the podcast.

Um that's the nonprofit that puts on DjangoCon US.

Um when I ran for the DEFNA board, I I guess essentially my platform was to focus on the NA, the North America, in that, and trying to make sure, trying to get more involvement from the non-US portions of North America.

Uh initially Canada and Mexico, but also the Caribbean.

Um and so in that role, I I I made myself the the definite uh North American ambassador to try to build community across North America.

Initially, primarily to let people know that with DjangoCon US, it can happen in any North American city.

Um, and people, I I don't know that people are aware of that.

And so as I would submit talks to different conferences, I would also speak to the conference organizers and let them know well, hey, in a few years, when you know, we know where DjangoCon is going to be for these next few years, but after that, it could be in any any North American city.

So at Pi, Tennessee, hey, Nashville, you know, it could be here.

At, you know, at Pi Gotham, you could be here at Pi Ohio, hey, Columbus could be here, Pi Caribbean, it could be in the in, you know, anywhere in North America, it could be there.

So that was sort of the motivation behind becoming the North American ambassador and then doing all the travel.

Um the and again, back to that idea of trying to create more contributors to the community.

The how is just I just sort of make it happen.

Um I'm uh you know, I'm using a lot of vacation days in in like, so I call it I call it NORMGT.

And I use the hashtag sometimes on Twitter, the North American Grand Tour is is what I'm sort of doing.

Um, but it's it it is almost entirely self-funded.

And so um, you know, so it's just a matter of me sort of using vacation days, using some conference, I I'm able to use conference days in a few limited spots, but for the most part, it's just me using my vacation days and and you know, and footing the bill for the travel and the accommodation myself.

So just trying to go to as many places as I can and trying to sort of maximize coverage, as it were, because there are certain parts of North America that don't that aren't as involved or aren't aren't always as included.

And so like I spoke to Pi Caribbean twice.

Um I spoke at Python Day Mexico.

I will almost definitely be going to Pi, the first PiCon Latam in uh in August, um and just sort of trying to do that.

But then I've also gotten a little carried away and I've been to other continents.

I'm supposed to be focusing on North America, but it's sort of uh it's morphed from me being the I think the initial intention was for me to be the ambassador from DEFNA to North America, but at some point I have become the ambassador from North America to the rest of the world.

So yeah, so I'm gonna have to try to dive that back a little bit because you know there are there are limits to you know time and and money into energy.

So trying to balance that all out.

So uh you're doing that in your vacation.

So I you know I always think, oh well, when I get back, I need a couple of days off to recover and rebuild my energy, but you're got you're back to work at this year.

Uh, I think when I came back from Pi, I I spoke at PiCon Australia last year.

And so I got a direct flight from Sydney back to Houston.

It was a 16-hour flight, 16-hour time difference.

So I got on the plane like Wednesday morning at 9, landed in Houston Wednesday morning at 9.30, and then just drove from the airport to work.

Um, and so, yeah, so so that's been a thing at times.

Um, yeah, and and so just sort of having to manage my energy and try to be a little more uh cognizant of things.

Like I I literally like about a few uh a few hours ago, I had to, you know, let one conference know that I wasn't gonna be able to attend just because of the way the scheduling was gonna work out.

Um, you know, I'd be traveling almost every week or every other week for like a two-month period, and just you know, between you know, money and personal resources and energy, you know, there's only so much of that you can do.

So wow, yeah.

One was DjangoCon last year and the other was PyCon this year, and I found that PyCon was way more overwhelming.

Um Yeah.

I just had this conversation with a friend uh a week or so ago.

PyCon 2019 for some reason seemed like it was a little more chaotic or overwhelming, not chaotic as far as unorganized, but just like there was more going on than PyCon 2018, the same venue, same place.

But I talked to a number of people, and we all sort of have the same experience of oh, like I didn't really get to see as many people.

I would see the person, I would see people that I knew, but they were like way over there, and there were a lot of people in between us.

Whereas in the same venue with roughly the same number of people in 2018, that didn't seem to be the case.

So, but yeah, yeah, there's a lot happening at PyCon.

Yeah.

Um, but I think, yeah, I just I just you know curious about your experience.

I mean, I think partly too, I spoke at DjangoCon, so I was I was in and out and I was also very wrapped up in my talk.

Uh whereas at PyCon I I didn't have a talk, so I was sort of, what do I, what do I do?

You know, I almost felt like I felt like if I wasn't having a meal with someone new every time, I wasn't quite uh yeah, making the most of it.

Yeah.

So you're you're in a very public-facing role.

You're not really there just to soak it all up at this point.

So let's see.

So I so with PyCon, I've never actually spoken to PyCon.

I did um last year, I gave, I led an open space, and then in 2017, I believe, I give a lightning talk.

Um, but I've never actually given like you know a full-on PyCon talk.

At most of the other conferences I go to, I'm giving a talk, and that's it makes it a little easier to justify the expense if I'm actually giving a talk and then doing some of the community building stuff.

But then at Django Con, I have a I have multiple, I have like three chairs for DjangoCon, and and almost all of them are public-facing things.

And so that's just sort of a thing.

Uh but yeah, I mean PyCon is is much bigger than almost anything else, you know, you would most people would go to.

And so it it can be a lot.

There's a there's a lot going on there.

How did you?

I'm always curious, since especially since it was somewhat recently, how did you uh how did you learn Django?

What was that process like for you?

Because I imagine you, I mean, I remember what it was like.

Uh so for you, what was that process like as an adult learning Django?

I'm actually really trying to spend more time working on Django.

I don't do as much Django as I'd like.

Uh I actually I tell people I'm much better at organizing Django Khan than I am at you know building things in Django.

And so that's I'm trying to sort of balance that out a little bit.

Uh but I I think I really started with the uh with a Django Girls tutorial.

I'm trying to remember like what inspired me.

I think it was just it was a more matter of I knew I presented, I had submitted to talk to Django Khan and I was going to be speaking there, and I just wanted to be more familiar with it.

So that's one of the things I did.

Um then I ended up being a Django Girls coach, and now I'm trying to work on some other projects um to just familiarize myself with Django more.

Um and so it's been it's been sort of an on and off process.

I spend more time using just regular Python than I do with Django, but I know but that I know that's an area that where I want to improve.

I mean, Carlton, I'd like you to weigh in.

I mean, I feel like I'm I'm pretty comfortable with with Django, but the amount of pure Python that I do is actually not well, it doesn't feel like that much.

I think it is because I just use the same things over and over again.

But you know, to the extent I have expanded learning time, there's a lot of things I want to build with Python, plus you're especially around async.

Um whereas I'm sort of I'm within the Django world most of the time.

Um so I guess there's always that feeling as a developer of there's something else I should be learning, you know.

So I have that with with pure Python, I would say actually.

Pro programming is a life project, and that's what's so good.

Nice about it, is you know, if if you f if you're the kind of person that finds the the um that logical challenge of programming fun and you can cope with the fact that computers are really particular, then you know there's always the new framework, the new language, the new and it's it's never ending.

It's like it it's brilliant.

It's this garden that you just keep picking up.

And that's why I always tell people sometimes uh other developers will say, Oh, I'm working on a Django thing, and feel like I'm I would be worried about that.

And I think, no, like everyone should write and teach because everyone learns differently and there's not one style for everyone.

But for me, it's it's like it's sort of that learning cycle.

Maybe I'm a little more negative about it, Carlton.

I just feel like I'm like, I know what I want it to do, why won't it do it, and then once I figure it out, I'm almost kind of angry that it took me so long to get there, right?

Like I have a long list of all these things.

I'm like, I want future me, it's like Calvin Hobbs, future me to do this and tell me how to do it, because I know that there is an elegant solution and I will find it, and then I'll be bored with it.

But um sometimes I'm like, I just I just want it.

Which is which you know, Kojo, to your point, like I came to I come to programming, it's a tool for me.

Like I wouldn't just code for fun.

Like I play music for fun, but I wouldn't code for fun.

It's very much Carlton looks hurt, you know, it's very

You can't just like sit there doing programming cones, but you've got something you want to build for the code.

Well, that's the

context problem, right?

So because the the standard CS programming things that engineers love to do, which I I envy, you know, output numbers from one to a hundred, make a pyramid, all these things, uh, I don't care.

It just doesn't like it doesn't connect with me at all.

you can show, you know, the person who built that can show it to their friends, to their families.

Like, look, I made a thing and it it exists in the real world as opposed to like, hey, let me bring you my laptop and open this ritual environment and show you how the script runs.

It's like, hey, no, just go to, you know, go to fancycojo.pythelandanyware.com and you'll see, you know, the fancy thing that I made because I'm fancy.

Yeah.

That's how I think of them, is you just you need to have them.

You gotta start with them saying, We're gonna have one, we'll get there.

And then especially, yeah, the web is fantastic because you can share it.

And as you said, it's you know, people feel good coming out of whatever tutorial, but then when they I always tell people like, like, really, share this link with some friends or family.

And that's I think when it goes, wow, like people people can see what you've done and it makes it real.

And so I I haven't gotten around to it, but I've been meaning to to take a look at your books as far as because I'm always I spend as someone who's changed who's career changed, um, I spend a certain amount of time, like I'm active in our Py Ladies chapter here, and then there's another um female centric coding group here that I'm involved with.

And so I end up meeting, and and even at our our standard Python meetup, I end up meeting a lot of people who are like learning to code for different reasons, some who are trying to career change.

So I'm always looking at different materials as far as okay, how can someone learn, you know, a Python or a Django?

And so in I I've heard good things about your books, and I know you've got them updated like for Python 2, 2.1 Python, Django 2.1, I believe.

2.2.

And so in the case of I'm very upset.

I I keep meaning to to take a look at your books because uh in you it seems like you've also got an interesting range of things, but from the question of how do you know how do people learn Django, um, there are a lot of different ways to go about it.

So that's another resource that I want to evaluate at some point.

Because I I get asked those sorts of questions in your sound.

I think Django's a really good, like the web is the tool, it's the publishing medium of now.

And Django's a a really great framework to for beginners and for well for everybody, but if we can really focus on spread spreading that story, it just it it's a it's a self-fulfilling self-fulfilling, it's a virtuous surface.

I gave a version of that talk here at my local Python meetup, and it ended up being more contentious than I expected.

Um basically, software engineers kind of want everybody to do things the software engineering way.

And one of the reasons I gave that, I gave that talk is because I've seen situations where so the the general Python community culture seems to be heavily skewed towards software engineering being the one true way of writing code.

And I I have definitions of sort of what do I mean by software engineering and what do I mean by programming?

And you know, I won't go into all the details, but basically, software engine software engineering is usually done in teams, it's usually a situation where the code is the final product, the people running the code aren't the people who wrote it.

With programming, it's almost the exact opposite.

Almost always done by individuals, the person running the code is the person who wrote it, and no one really cares about the code, you care about the output.

And so you've got different different use cases, different constraints.

So all software engineers are programmers, but all programmers aren't software engineers and don't need to be and don't aspire to be.

Uh, and so that talk ended up being a little bit contentious, but the sort of the undercurrent of that is that if we want more contributors uh in the community, we can't have the software engineers who are sort of seen as the authority figures and the more experienced people telling the programmers that they're doing it wrong because like they don't, you know, because they don't have a Travis account, or because you know they're not using Docker, unless that programmer has a specific use case where it's like, oh, you know what, here's this problem you're running into, you know, trap, you know, having you know continu

ous integration would solve that, or you know, having you know, using Git would it would solve that, or or what have you.

Uh and so again, trying to uh to maximize the potential number of contributors because it's an open source project.

Python and Django both are both open source projects.

Then we need as much help as we can.

Uh Russell Keith McGee gave an excellent keynote at PyCon this year where he touched on that.

I mean, he he's spoken about that kind of thing a lot.

And the idea of, you know, if there's money, I I mean, yourself, Carlton, and you're the Django fellow.

Um, one of the Django fellows, if there is funding available, you can pay people to work on these projects instead of having to rely entirely on volunteers.

But even with that, people with who have skills available, who have skills, you know, that we could pay them money to make use of, those people have options.

And so, like, you know, you could I could get paid money to work on Python or Django, or I get paid money to work on some other thing.

If every time I use Python or Django, the people in that community are like, hey, you're doing it wrong.

Well, like, why am I gonna spend my time working on this?

I could get paid the same amount of money to go work on something else where people aren't where people actually value what I'm doing and aren't telling me I'm wrong.

Um, and so you know, it's what sort of wanting to try to try to bring out the idea of maximizing the range of contribution that we can get from that spectrum.

Because again, everyone doesn't have to be a software engineer.

There are lots of people who use Python that that could potentially become contributors, but we have to make sure that we're including those people in our community discussions and that we're not telling them wrong because they're not quote unquote full-fledged software engineers.

So something else I wanted to touch upon is uh so Django itself is going through a change in core contributors.

I know you've written about this.

I'm wondering if you could share your your perspective on, you know, what what's your take on where you'd like to see the Django core or what's what is thought of as core go moving forward?

I mean, and that's just sort of the reality of things, uh the reality of open source.

Um but again, trying to so no matter what you do, it there's always going to be a very small, like of the the number of people who use Django, you know, compared to, you know, if you have like the the bottom number is the number of people who use Django, the top number is the number of people who actually contribute to it, that top number is always going to be an infinitesimally small fraction of the bottom number.

Um, I think my concern is more being able to draw from a wider pool for that top number, for that that that contributor number, because that that just gives you a number of different benefits uh from the standpoint of you know different viewpoints, uh different coverage, you know, you've got a variety of uh of thoughts and and inputs and that sort of thing.

So beyond sort of general thinking, I haven't given a whole a whole lot of thought or attention to the the changes of Django Core, like partially because I I've been busy being the North American ambassador.

And so, you know, I I've been sort of like wandering the the continent and slash planet, um, talking to people about about DjangoCon.

But you know, partially because I feel that like if people are in uh especially at least throughout North America are aware that DjangoCon US could come to their North American city, then I think that increases some some of the buy-in.

It's like, oh wait, I mean, because for instance, that's not the case with PyCon.

PyCon is big enough where it can only go to certain places.

Whereas with the Django Con, with DjangoCon US, we want those CFPs, you know, once that goes once that process is open, we want to hear that input from different people in different places.

And as different local communities become more engaged, if they realize, hey, you know what, DjangoCon US could come here, then I think that drives more engagement and then that sort of engagement and involvement will draw more people in, whether it be to the conference or to contributing to Django itself.

I mean, because it also does, or at least recently, what two years in one place and then moves from there.

Okay, I have that right.

And it it's only five hundred, it's not even five hundred people, three hundred and fifty people.

So it it could again it could go anywhere.

Um it's finding the team that want to.

And I'm just thinking about what Kojo's saying about getting contributors, because it's something I've talked I've spoken about and beat the drum for, widening the contributors.

I think you're right, there will always be a small number, and we see more perhaps coming in, we see fresh contributors.

Oh, that's exciting, but it's still what I'm still not seeing as many non-white males.

And white males are great, but there are lots of people in the Django community who don't fit that profile, and we don't see so many of those people contributing, and it would be really nice.

Um, even if it's only like one one pull request, one two pull requests, you know, one one change to the dock, one uh one anything.

But like come and join in because people are welcome and we're trying, you know, we try and be supportive, and it's we still have barriers, and to knock those down is what is it's kind of like if I it's it's it's the my tick.

If I've got a tick, is I want to really help try and smooth that on ramp because historically it's not.

Yeah yeah exactly.

One by so with the things that we do like at DjangoCon US specifically, you know, the orientation session is designed to sort of to you know help create a more welcoming environment, and then you know, so that while you're at DjangoCon you you can you know feel like you're more a part of the community and the other organizers also work very hard to have that uh that inclusion culture at DjangoCon US the reality is some people you know are are off put by some of that some people want just like 100% purely hardcore technical you know super advanced Django

you know tips and tricks the reality is and I've talked to people about submitting talks to DjangoCon DjangoCon is Django is three things it is an open source web application framework written in Python and so the open source part will means that it's a community driven thing almost entirely volunteer driven and so you have to take care of the community so that the project can continue to live.

I think uh it was Jacob Kaplan Moss who said in one of his talks any community that's not tended to, you know that's not you know, you tended to or looked after tends towards toxicity.

And so there's a certain amount of effort that's required to maintain the quality of the community in the community culture.

And that means sometimes at conferences for open source projects they're going to be talks about community and about things like burnout and mental health and that sort of thing because members that's how you keep the members of the community strong and so you know so so there's that but then there's also the idea of you know you know trying to sort of share the idea that DjangoCon US could come to a different city and and just as you get more people involved it draws in more people who could be potential contributors and and if you make that group you know not

focusing just on like you know cis hetero white men between 25 and 45 then you get these different viewpoints and and different insights that you might not have seen otherwise and then that makes the software better um it makes it applicable to a wider range of situations and it just makes you know the overall experience better.

So well

That seems like a really nice structure of it because it does remove some confusion and I mean Carlton you're speaking on the third day I'm speaking I think on the second day because my talk is a little more beginner intermediate.

That seems you know that's a nice structure for people to understand.

Um I know a lot of in again as someone who's been to a lot of conferences I've spoken to a lot of people at conferences and most people don't go to conferences unless like their company is is paying for it.

I'm one of the few people that I know who just goes to conferences because I'm going to a conference or be you know or just submits talk to conferences just because um and so most people either won't go or can't go unless they're getting it paid for by their company and then there needs to be some sort of business case.

You know or and you've got people who are entrepreneurs and that sort of thing who are you know running their own one or two person Django shop and so they want you know it sort of as much like meat for lack of a better term as they can get.

And so and so something like this sort of you know Django under the hood-ish day um helps to fill that need

es the product better and you're just like yeah this is this is right you know if if you if you have a a diversity hire you actually check widen the perspective of your team which it makes you capable of creating better software and any any business owner sitting in that audience who took that to heart would go home and have a uh make a better hiring decision and have a stronger team because of that and their business would would profit and I think I think it's a tendency to to say oh well because they're not technical talks there's not as much value

in the conference.

No, there's more value in the conference

talks I mean Carlton we first connected uh you gave a a talk on you know life as a programmer of a certain age which we both are um you know that's a timeless talk that's not going to get old you know that resonates more than you know some discrete tiny technical issue and I think Kojo your efforts and I hope this podcast as well shows that the you know the Django the Python community is not just experts in a little shell throwing exit stuff.

I mean there's some of that but it's it's people who really want to help and having all these experiences and voices helps helps everyone understand what it's like because we all just trapped in our own head.

I mean for me I've as an educator one of the challenges I've had is that as my knowledge of Django has increased I lose touch a little bit with what the true beginner mindset is like because when I wrote my first book I was or when I started writing it I was a beginner but I do that by doing dozens of like literally dozens of emails every day.

So that's sort of how I get that touch point and it just provides the empathy that helps any community and helps me be better at my job I think helps anyone be good at their job as a programmer.

Because for example even an advanced person often just thinks well everyone knows XYZ or it doesn't it they just don't think that it's hard because they've never experienced trying to show it to someone else.

So if you think something's easy try to teach it to someone like try to teach someone how to install Python on a Windows machine.

And so once you get beyond sort of like here's a talk for beginners who don't know Python okay I've now I'm gonna do an intermediate talk for people who know like some Python or some Django.

Yeah well but how much do they know and what specific things do they know?

It's it's difficult.

And so that can be tricky.

steps even if it's quickly going through it because you just parachute in and I can't follow a lot of tutorials if someone just jumps in and says oh we got a basic blog here it's like wow there's so many different ways you could do that blog and so many things that compound you know so uh but you know but it's a ton of work.

I mean it's I speak from experience it's a ton of work for me every single time I do a tutorial or something to just like start from the bare basics.

And most people don't do the work.

So yeah that and and I I think it's the same thing a lot of the talks I've given have been more beginnerslash intermediate and but I I I do that because again my emphasis is on trying to help bring new contribution to the community.

And so I tend to focus on on that sort of range.

But but I know that as I move into more intermediate talks there's this idea of needing to define okay what what are you what do I expect you to know?

If I'm if I'm not going to start from the beginning what do I expect you to know or to be familiar with and trying to outline that up front such that so that people can can decide okay is this a talk I'm gonna get something out of or not.

Right.

So something else Kojo uh you recently won the Malcolm Trudnik Award.

Could you speak a bit about what that award is uh

Um, and I don't know that I was familiar with the award until I won it.

And then when you know I found out that I won it, I I read the description and I was like, oh, like this is like kind of what I've been trying to do.

And so I I was I was this that I was ecstatic.

I was like, okay, I I I couldn't be any more happy um with having, you know, having won this award because this is you know a lot of what I've been trying to do since I came into the Python community.

Uh and then I know a few people who have won the award before me, and so it's it's a good company to be in.

Um and so unfortunately I was able I was never able to meet Malcolm.

I I didn't become active in the Django community uh until after he'd passed away.

Um, but all the descriptions that I have heard about him, um, and I know a few people, I know well, more than a few people who know him and have met him, and so um it was uh it was very it was very very you know rewarding to to receive the prize.

So that's something I'm something something I'm fairly proud of.

I try to maintain a certain sort of level-headedness and uh and a level of perspective, but you know, it is something I'm I'm proud of.

So for for listeners who want to get in touch, what's or read more, what's the best way uh for folks to do that?

Um my Twitter handle is transition, just like the normal word, nothing fancy, just the word transition.

Uh, that's the only social media that I have.

I also have a blog uh which is Kojoidrisa.com.

It is not terribly frequently updated.

I'm I'm working on trying to do a better job of that.

Um, and also trying to write a little bit more about the North American Grand Tour.

It's something I've been doing it for now for the past almost two years, but I I don't feel like I've done a great job of sort of explaining it to you know I've explained, I think like there are like seven people who know what NORMGT means.

Uh and so I need to do that.

So if you see the hashtag NORMGT uh on Twitter, that's uh me being on somewhere on the North American Grand Tour.

Um but yeah, those are the best places to find me.

Twitter probably the best place to interact with me.

It's it's really important work that you're doing, and I hope you get a little more recognition for you.

Thank you all for having me.

The podcast is excellent.

I'm about halfway through the Nicholas Tollivery one, so it's been excellent.

Thanks.

Thank you.