Transcript: Django Community - Anna Makarudze

I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hello, Carlton.

And we're very pleased to have Anna Makaruze join us, who is president of the Django Software Foundation.

Welcome.

Thank you, Carlton.

So maybe I'll throw it over to you.

What's your background?

How did you get into programming Django?

And then we've got lots of questions to ask you.

So I've always wanted to be a software engineer uh ever since high school.

So I actually started coding in high school.

And I have I went on to study a degree in computer science uh at Midland State University.

So I actually have a computer science background.

I know there's always charter awards.

I decided to mix and match my career.

So when I after I graduated, I worked in the telecoms industry, but before that, I had also done some systems admin uh in a university setup, and then I went also into consulting doing project management for um a telecoms project in Mozambique, and then I I later decided to learn programming after the first five years of my career.

So I actually started learning Python programming in 2015 after my master's in strategic management.

That's when I decided to learn programming in Python and then started working with Django in late 2015 and 2016.

That's when I joined the Django community.

But I have a computer science degree.

I started programming in uh high school through college, but uh never worked as a programmer after college until 2016.

Can I ask what the what the languages were that you were using in high school and college?

We also did a little bit of Pascal back then, and then in college we did uh C C C Visual Basic and Java.

I think by the time we went into college, we were no longer using Pascal in college, if I remember well.

Those are the ones, those are the ones that I remember.

It was uh simple, it's language like English language like uh syntax is very simple, and the indentation no same no semicolons or braces uh to indicate a loop.

So I really loved uh Python.

I think it's it's the language that I found the easiest of them all, and I guess that's why I stick to it and made it my main language.

You got involved right away with PyCon events and Django Girls and and all the rest, right?

You didn't waste any time getting involved.

Uh he uh he learned Python after doing some research on the Python communities and how they were working.

So he had this vision of starting a community in Zimbabwe, and for that to happen, we did have a lot of support from our own uh Zimbabwean business environment, and we're also new programmers and new to the language.

So he's the one who introduced me to PyCon Namibia and Django Girls Find Ok, uh, which uh we attended the 2016 version of it.

So we could also 2016, is it?

Yes, so we could organize our own events in Zimbabwe.

I think it's 2016.

And also that's when I first got involved with the community, and then uh after that, I was always attending conferences or speaking at conferences or you know doing some some Django girls events.

But getting involved with the community, I think is something that I all too hump free, I didn't even know they saw such a thing as a Django community or a Python community else anyway in the world.

So yeah, that's how I got involved.

So um can you tell us a bit more about the the community there?

And is is it big?

Is it small?

Uh but uh when we started, it was actually small, and uh there were a few programmers, and we managed to organize uh PyCode Zimbabwe with the help of uh the DSF community mostly because we had to run a crowdfunding campaign.

Um Daniele procedure was uh very instrumental in that and we had also made Luke uh from Netherlands was also very helpful because we used uh the company that he worked for at the time, One Patient Club, to do the campaign.

And then we had uh lots of support from the Django community itself uh to run the campaign.

And uh for the first few years, 2016, 2017, up to 2018, we managed to have uh two PyCons, uh three PyCons in Zimbabwe.

And also I tried to run a pilot disarare, but eventually I got banned out.

Uh very few people were turning up, and uh it was always uh difficult having uh the same speakers, and um but then we hadn't really started doing uh virtual stuff, like having virtual speakers uh working with us, so it was difficult uh maintaining um the meetups going.

But then we also but actually there's a growing number of um Python developers now, only that we don't have a community because people are always worrying about uh their bread and butter issues, you know.

It's uh Zimbabwe, it's a tough economy, and somebody would rather spend the little money they have on the upkeep or trying to get more money instead of uh traveling to a meetup and stuff like that.

And it also has been difficult to keep the momentum of organizing conferences because uh you never know which official currency you are using in Zimbabwe.

We used to use this US dollar and then now they say it's the introduced other TGS, which was one S to one with the US dollar.

Now it's no longer one S to one with the US dollar, it's uh there's a black market rate.

And if you charge your prices in US dollars, you might be found to be, you know, uh doing something illegal.

So you don't want to risk yourself.

Uh there's so much you can do for a community, and you don't want to get into legal trouble because you're trying to set up a conference.

So I think that's the one major blocker that we faced.

Uh it was difficult to advertise a conference when you're pricing uh in US dollars, and yet the economy at that time uh they are saying it's illegal to price your safes in US dollars, but then it's difficult also to price in your local currency because uh the black markets are always spiraling.

So the value also it also you know tends to lose its value when you're using it.

Yeah.

That's like really interesting because I I wanted to ask you about the economy in in Zimbabwe, and then what and like are you able to integrate with the sort of um the sort of the international programming market?

Because so say I would imagine you you'd be, you know, you've sat there with a computer science degree, you've got skills in Python, you've got skills in Django, very marketable in Europe.

I don't know if you're able to you know work in Europe or work remotely with European companies, that kind of thing.

But uh yes, uh I've worked for Brightco in 2019 as a full-time, full-time job.

Uh, it was a US-based company, and uh most people are working for either for uh European companies or American companies.

I've been, I think after Brightcore, I was a bit torn on whether I wanted to okay, or on the language stake that I wanted to maintain.

So I took some time to from personal development, and then afterwards I was more focused on whether I want remote work or I want to relocate because the kind of qualifications that I hold that I have if I were to uh get a job, they would uh require me to recall re-relocate.

Like I want to explore side reliability engineering and that might mean relocating if I need to work in a large company so but I think yeah this year I'm open to that that's what I'm working towards uh Google has approached me I think about more than five times now in since 2016 so I think I'm going to so I I took this year to the first half of the year to try and prepare for the EDA fees whether it works out with Google or not I'll try another tech company

but the point is um I'm actually uh reading one of their books uh this one Sagittarius engineering on Google yeah okay how Google runs protection systems so I'm actually now on page 350 then once I'm done with this I'm now working on the technical skills to uh prepare for the interviews but mostly people are doing remote work or they are relocating to South Africa or the uh or any other African countries or they end up actually in

Europe for work because you can only be patriotic enough at a certain point in in time and then you realize I'm actually wasting my skills I need to consider other markets.

That that's my target for this year.

I think I saw you gave the keynote at Django Con 2018 I think in San Diego.

Yeah do I have that right

've uh spoken at DjangoCon Europe uh 2017 in Florence it was uh we co-presented together with Humphrey But was one of who's one of the trustees of the Python software for uh python uh simbabwe python trust yeah in Zimbabwe uh we organized PyCon 2016 2017 together and he organized the 2018 18 one without me uh I've also att

ended uh DjangoCon Europe 2018 I was just an organizer and also organized uh jungle girls at that time then mostly I've attended PyCon in Namibia I think I attended 2016 2017 and 2018 and PyCon South Africa 2016 under the wood 2016 uh pykonafride 2019 then pykon Nigeria 2018

yes I think up to 2019 I used to travel a lot I think I would do maybe three or four conferences per year mostly four conferences per year then 2019 I was busy with Bright Course so I only attended PyCon Africa and then the pandemic struck I canceled all my trips for 2020 and I don't know if I will be able to travel this year for conferences um you never know what's going on it's difficult to plan a trip when you can just wake up and they say we are not accepting anyone from Souther

n Africa uh because of Omicron.

So I think this year I might not actually plan a trip uh maybe next year I I'm not sure because

Addis Ababa you are told you uh the plane is to turn around and go back to Zimbabwe or you used uh emulates you are in Dubai you are told you are not landing here you have to go back to Zimbabwe

yeah that'

well the US too so you know don't yeah

uh it was actually funny we had other other countries like Rwanda uh and many you know African countries were also blocking out planes from the Sadic region so if if our fellow Africans can block us uh to say you cannot come because you've got uh because of the variant I think it's not safe for us to be planning a jungle con Africa until you know things normalize and then maybe we can get back to planning a jungle con Africa.

Hopefully things will stabilize in Ethiopia or we might actually have to find another venue because it's difficult to plan with the way things are now it means other Ethiopians Ethiopians themselves cannot attend the conference uh which defeats the purpose you'd rather find an uh um a safe venue or a safe country at this point in time.

DSF board uh okay I was elected end of twenty seventeen for twenty eighteen so you must have joined uh

so I think most of 2018 I was new on the board and I was rather in Daniele's shadow and learning mostly from him because Daniele is very passionate he was born in Africa uh in Ethiopia so and then they moved to Italy so he because of uh his African roots he's very passionate about Africa and uh probably that's why he invested a lot of time in um growing the community in Africa so 2019 and 2020 that's when I was the

VP so you you must have joined in is it 2020

yeah and um for yeah uh Katya and and Aaron were also there in 2020 so um yes yeah so you're still the you're still the line you're the you're still the original one but before yes.

Um because you know, every year the election comes up and what's you've got two of you here now.

So you know how much time do you do you give out?

You know, what what's the volunteer effort that's required?

Um it depends if you are in an officer role like you and myself, uh treasurer and president, they tend to have uh more emails uh than any other officer role because uh every fundraising uh issue, sometimes Catherine responds to them, sometimes you respond to them.

Then also the issue because we are behind the fundraising and the legal aspect of the D uh of the Django project, it means also there might be some trademark uh emails which anyone can respond to.

Uh Aaron used to do that to respond to those when he was the vice president.

Um I didn't respond to any, and then Frank also used to respond to those, and then uh Haym now is the uh vice president and he's got some legal background.

So usually we leave uh issues with uh legal stuff we don't understand to him, but you tend to have um emails, find uh trademark issues, fundraising, and then when you are the president, also you get copied on uh many mailing lists, so that tends to increase your email volume.

But most of them I don't respond to them, I just wait until I really have to say something.

But uh other than that, uh also being a treasurer for like Will, uh there'll also be like meetings, the JetBrains um uh uh fundraising, uh, as well as this year.

Last year we did uh the survey with them.

Those are the extra meetings that you might have uh in your role, but mostly it's one hour per month.

Maybe we can say maybe two hours per month.

It might be more if you have to draft some blog posts or some announcements or something, then it also increases the work that the workload that you have to do.

But yeah, it depends with the whether you are just a director or the is uh you are in officer role.

But there's also room for you to work on stuff that you are passionate about as well.

So that might also increase your load if you have something that you actually join the board with um the intent of doing.

When we joined the board, uh is uh the first time he ran for the board, he was he he came actually to be the treasurer, and in his uh personal statement, he had points that he wanted to you know to accomplish.

And so I would like to believe I his first and second years were very busy.

I don't know for you.

So when I joined um Catherine Holmes, who's the DSF assistant and does so much for us, she was able to we formalized her role.

So she does hours a week um that helps me uh volunteer to do the role.

So it's it's probably I check generally I check email every day.

Um, and there's treasure things and there's ops teams things.

I'm on those emails as well because we've we're switching some of the servers around.

Um but yeah, it's a it's a commitment.

Um it's it's been less this month so far, but when I came in that we didn't have Catherine helping in a formalized way, and there'd been a lot of turnover in the position because it's so much time.

So there was a lot of work uh that Catherine and I have done to have all the emails go to treasurer at Jango Project.com to have like a Google Doc of financial statements pulled together monthly that everyone can look at.

So all these kind of things um that are more you know, whoever the next treasurer is when that happens, it should be a much smoother transition.

Um But Anna still takes, I mean, especially, you know, this year I feel like it's been better because we have we have basically we have the same board as we did last year.

And when you have new board members, you know, A, they don't know how it works, and B, they're less um it's just easier when you have some consistency there because people kind of know how it is, and like Haim's taking over the trademark stuff, you know, Aaron, you know, people can move around and understand the system.

Katya's doing a lot with um the Django cons.

So having some consistency helps logistically with all the tasks.

So say if there's six members, you have two up for election each year so that there's some continuity, or do you think it's okay as it is?

I mean sometimes I worry we have too much bureaucracy for a small org.

Uh we think it's actually too much to have uh elections every year, especially if you're going to have the same people.

We would rather have a two-year term which somebody could opt out to at the end of uh a year, and then we have elections for those open positions because it helps when you have the same board or you have old members.

But I'm imagining the situation where at the end of the year, if everybody decides to step down, it means uh the first few months of next year, uh people might be actually gaining confidence on uh or on just being a board member.

You are not sure how to run things, and when you have an entirely new board, uh it might actually slow down.

So I think it makes sense to have like what the PSF does, that they they are there, their terms are not like annual having elections every year.

There are some people who do like maybe two, three years and then they step down.

So I think it would be a good thing for the DSF considering that we are very small and that uh our candidate pool is very is not it's not so large, it would actually make uh things smoother.

This year, I think um the end of a takeover last year was actually very funny because it was just a matter of saying uh Anna maintains the role, then Haym switches over from secretary to vice president, Aaron steps down from vice president, phone is moving from being an ordinary member to being the secretary, uh Katia maintained the Django Con uh Liaison role, and then uh Will remained the stretcher.

And then we actually continued with uh the board meeting.

We didn't even discuss the roles and just did a Google talk.

And people did, you know, they end over, take over outside of the meeting.

So when we started January, it was business as usual and you know things moved faster.

So I think it would make sense if uh the bylaws of uh the DSF could be changed to terms which are longer than one year, especially if the member is willing to put up uh if they know I'm going to do two years, then they just sign up for two years.

And then at the end of the year, those who have to step down, they say, Okay, this office are always open.

We have elections for that.

I think it would be a good way for the DSF.

Which you know, because you you don't want to be there for forever and ever and ever.

You're like, you know, then historically it's kind of been five years, as I think is roughly the people who played a role

This is my fifth year as uh a GSF board member.

So I don't think this time the five-year rule for the president is going to work on me.

I've already done uh three years, uh first as a director, two years as a vice president, and then this is my second year as president.

So I'm already at five years, so it's and it's a long time to commit to something.

Uh yeah,

Yes.

So it would actually work better if we were uh if we knew we're sticking uh around after the election, instead of doing the election every year and expecting a new board to come and uh take off.

So I think every you know every sort of major cycle from LTS to LTS is much more sustainable.

You know, it's it's three two and a half years that kind of way.

So I had one more quite related question was that the DSF membership is quite big, and there's you kind of lots of projects that could be done, lots of ideas.

And I wonder if you either of you have thoughts on how we can harness the DSF membership for things.

I don't know, things like making the website better or for more outreach or for you know, not necessarily technical things about the framework, but community projects.

Um I don't wonder if we'd you know it ties into perhaps you know DSF members could take their turn on the boards, you know.

Oh yeah, I've been you know, there's a space open, I'll I'll jump in.

But you know, I don't know, we talked about fundraising being an issue a a lot, and can we improve that?

And there's lots of skills, and there's a kind of a need, and it's matching the two together.

I don't know how as a community we can muster that.

I don't know if you have any thoughts.

Uh so we have about 200 members.

I think one of the things that's been hard is the pandemic because a lot of times people get to meet in person at Django Cons or or PyCons, especially Django Cons and have these conversations.

It's it's difficult to have creative conversations, you know, over the email or in the forum.

So I think that's been a big handicap recently around it.

But yes, it is something that we need to think about how we use them because we do have these people, we could have working groups.

The question always comes down to the board is volunteers, if we have to manage something else, you know, if it's not a self-sufficient working group.

Whereas if we met people at a DjangoCon Europe or US and we sat down with them and they said, yes, we will commit to this, I think there's a little more ownership than just putting out a call for people who maybe don't know each other as well to tackle some of these issues.

But one of the things I hope this year is that because we have the same board, you know, it opens us up to change the bylaws if we need to, to be more creative as opposed to just reacting to things which, you know, in the past, I feel like we did a bit of that.

So yeah, I mean, a part of it too is if people want to want to do these things, how how do we organize them, right?

So the the website, right?

Like, yeah, it would be great to have a working group.

The PSF does this to improve the website.

I don't know that we have like a clamoring of people who want to donate time, you know, via email for that.

So what do you think, Anna?

You know more.

Like uh we actually had uh issues getting people to organize uh DjangoCon Europe 2022 uh because of the uncertainty of whether it will be in person or it will be online again.

And normally we don't have issues getting DjangoCon Europe organizers because when the conference uh happens, there's usually either a TSF member or an organizer who then calls out for new volunteers.

You have meetings uh with them, you talk things through, and then they step up and uh submit a proposal for the next conference.

So uh the pandemic has made uh things difficult in terms that you have to get people to commit via email, and uh it's been difficult managing what we already have uh and getting volunteers to do the work uh of what we already are already doing during the pandemic because of that.

And I I'm not sure whether it would uh would be able to.

We're thinking of actually setting up a working group and to help us develop standards for Django Korn.

I did a couple of talks last year, one at Django Korn Europe, and uh did an indirect call for volunteers, but we didn't get anyone stepping up.

And one thing that I understand is people are busy with the pandemic, they are trying to make a living.

Uh, it has changed the way people work, and people are trying to cope with a lot right now.

So there's the issue of mental health issues, people are trying to adjust to as well as taking just taking care of themselves and their families.

So maybe when things normalize, it would be great if we could get um people to join working groups and help us with such things.

But one thing that I I don't know how effective uh the that would be also because remember that the board members are volunteers, like we said, they need to manage volunteers again, so it will be like we are in we keep increasing the number of volunteers and things might get broken because uh it's a volunteer managing another volunteer.

We may anyone, any one of them can just decide to say, um, I'm busy, I no longer have the bandwidth for this.

And I was uh telling the board that I discovered, you know, we have a grants working group on the listed on the website.

I think maybe they they during the whole time that I was on the board, uh since 2018, I've never heard of them or see what they were doing.

Meaning probably they were set up maybe prior to maybe uh until 2017 or 2016.

That's when that working group was working.

They would usually sit down and uh give grants to conference uh attendees who would otherwise fail to attend the conference.

So we have a working group that is listed on the website, which hasn't been working for all these years.

So that's another thing to say, aren't we just uh creating other committees and groups which will not manage and which will not do anything as well?

Though there is actually need for us to make use of the membership, I think it would be better if we could uh meet like uh we used to do like at Jungle Court New Year's 2018, all the board members except one uh were there, and we did the meeting in person and we were able to meet uh other community members.

Um I think we need to get to a point where we are meeting again, and uh people are discussing even what uh about it.

I remember when I attended uh Django Con Europe 2017, uh even 2018, when people went for dinner, they'll be talking about Django or M or something, how they can make it better, you know, at a conference.

But because of the pandemic, we've lost that, and we can, you know, no longer discuss things that would usually discuss in person and commit to those things.

But to have extra capacity to do extra things, that's just not been there.

And that's just that's true for everybody at the moment still.

I'm going to do a the first treasurer uh blog post on the finances because it's pretty hidden to people.

So they don't I think even the membership, let alone users, don't really know where the money goes, right?

Or how much money there is.

I mean, we talk about a little bit in this podcast, but the budget is around $160,000 a year, which most of it goes to the fellows, um, and then the rest goes to conference organizing or just admin around the servers and and legal stuff.

But people don't have a sense of the size of what we do.

And I guess one benefit of the pandemic is we haven't had conferences in person, so we haven't made as many donations.

So that combined with GitHub sponsors, the um the threadless merchandise store we have, we've increased the balance sheet of the DSF.

So it was this this is I can say this publicly, it was um at the beginning of at the end of 2020, it was around $180,000.

So that's basically one year operating budget, so not much leeway as things go.

Um, and at the end of the year, it was $232, $232,000.

So a net increase of $52,000.

And those numbers fluctuate a lot.

Um, a quarter of that is jet brains, the rest is corporate and individual donations.

But we have more money to potentially do things than we have in the past, and also we know now that if we wanted to pay for things, we have that ability because the Python Software Foundation is doing those things.

So I think there's possibilities, but it's again, it's post-pandemic.

Um, you know, that's always the issue with raising money.

Like we could raise more money, you could the various things we could do, but where would it go?

So it's a little chicken and egg.

We need the community and the members to say something really needs to happen that is either volunteers or funded before we can put the extra work in to do it.

But I I wanted to actually, Carlton, um, as a fellow, we don't really talk about your role.

Like, could you what is it like being a fellow?

You know, you came on with Tim Graham and you know, Marius.

I mean, as a board member, we're so lucky that you and Marius are just so competent and we really have very little oversight we have to do for you.

I mean, we see what you're doing and we approve the payments, but there's not much work that we have to do there.

But at some, you know, that's just because of how lucky we've been.

Like there will be new fellows.

So, you know, what's your take on the state of status of the fellows program?

Like, you know, that it's just too many.

So it needs to have a a paid role to do just do the triage, just do the the pull request review.

And we have a great community who help with the the triage, who help with the pull request review, but far more than can be done on a volunteer basis.

Um Maris and I we do that.

I I you know Django's given me so much, Django's given me an entire career.

So to be able to give back to Django is just it's you know, I consider myself immensely privileged to be able to play that role.

And then the bit that I look at is the new contributors coming in, and I look at, well, okay, you know, I I get old and you know I get slower every year.

Well, that's fine.

So I step away.

Uh is there a depth of you know, a depth of contributor base?

Yeah, there are other contributors, but I'd like to see see that grow would be something that I would think if the DSF could, you know, if the DSF could spend money and time there, that would be an amazing thing to see to help contributors come on.

So that I felt that there was a deeper pull.

We've still got some great contributors.

Some we've got great old contributors, we've got great new contributors, but that's my worry.

I think that the fellow program works very well.

Um, and beyond that, there's a core there's a core that you know are there, but it's not it's not um as big as it could be, and it's not as diverse as the wider Django community.

Um and so how can we how can we address that?

And I think that's that's my sort of concern for the stability for the not concern, but that's that's the thing that plays on my mind that I'm constantly thinking about about the sustainability of Django.

I mean, we've really I mean Django's benefited from that.

I often think, is there do we need something like that to have you know something more than a smaller ticket?

Or, you know, Andrew Godwin has been doing so much work on his own.

Um, like I often wonder, do we need a Django summer of code?

You know, or something like that to spur these types of things, right?

Because in those cases the community can say, here are things that need to be done, or I guess people can submit, but you have, you know, someone can focus for two or three months with mentors on an issue, and that's kind of what it takes for some of these bigger things.

And if we could somehow bootstrap um new contributors, they don't have to be you know totally green, but the newer contributors, so that they could get a bit more depth in into the sort of the guts of Django, so then they'd be in a position where they're then able to triage these harder issues or review these pull requests that are more difficult, and then it's like, ah, but that person would then be an excellent candidate to become a future fellow.

You know, that that would be that would then seem to be a sustainable pipeline for the fellow program, which I I think is essential for Django.

So something like that would be my thought.

Because it's just so it's just so much more efficient to do it in person um as opposed to doing it all virtually.

But I one almost wonder if that's something we could have a sponsorship for people to get that expertise.

So there is a bullpen for that.

Um so we ran a workshop, we had four tables of people can um getting and they all went through and they had the test suite running and they they got to know track and they picking tickets, and from that we've probably had a couple of contributors hang around.

But that that that one day isn't enough.

I think we need something where it's like you know, you can work on this over a month, two months, three months, like a little grant, like it, you know, you said Django Summer Code, that's not a bad idea, a longer period, so that um you can develop a bit of depth um to it.

And then, you know, and I I again I come back to um the thought that if you can get over this hurdle, it becomes a it becomes a kind of um hiring bonus.

You know, once I became a contributor to DRF, the hiring dynamic changed because I'd go to companies instead of saying, Oh yeah, I know DRF, it's been well I help, you know, I help I'm on the core team for DRF and I help maintain it.

And then they were obviously like, wow, yeah, we want you, versus, oh well, are you sure you're good enough?

And and if you're a regular contributor to the framework, that does make that difference.

And if so, if we could bootstrap people to that position, we're doing them a favor as well, and we're really pumping back into our community.

So I don't know, but that's that would be my where's the money best spent.

Um I don't know now that we've um probably some extra money, I don't know how that would go if we could uh have some mentorship for people.

I know Carlton joined the Django Girls Advisory Board to try and get more contributors to Django by getting involved.

So I'm just wondering from what Carlton was saying about this uh mentorship program and getting people to contribute to Django, how uh those plans would work.

Um maybe from Carlton as a fellow.

I don't know if I'm allowed to ask questions anyway, but it just you know came to my mind that we uh we have other projects that we would want to see uh to see being done.

And then he also thinks we should run some fellowship program to get contributors onto Django.

I mean, you and Maris are already slammed.

So, for instance, you know, uh on my my list is exactly this um to create a kind of workshop for getting started.

So take to take the stuff we did at Django Kun um US, the last one, 20 whenever that was, 2019, I guess.

Um, and write that up and then make that into a tutorial that can be run, you know, separately.

And okay, that's that would be one thing.

Yeah, I I remember these other projects being proposed and then not followed through.

And then you've mentioned um the working group for the grants, that it's another thing that sort of died.

So one thing we need to do is prune as well, is you know, and is that program worth picking up or is it something to um is it something to say no, we're not gonna do that?

But instead of having these half-finished things, which you know it's nobody's fault, it's all volunteer effort, and the last three years have been anything but easy.

Um well

Um, versus, you know, speaking for myself, I I feel like I've more or less done what I came to do.

Um so we will I'll see if it makes sense to do it another year.

But it you know, you need people who know something and then who have a mission on what they want to do.

Um, but I I want to ask the two of you, Django Girls.

You both do a lot with Django Girls, and especially you've been actually doing some programming for Django Girls.

We haven't talked about it at all, really.

Um so let's let's do a quick plug for Django Girls, and and they've had a change of leadership too in the last couple years.

Uh they advertised for Django Girls Awesome Ambassador, and then they interviewed us uh oh.

So it turned out Claire was good with uh the admin staff, she was based in the UK, uh, and I didn't have any finance or admin background, and I knew them uh I could maintain the website and do the fundraising bit.

So they had two candidates who could do half the job, so they created another role for fundraising coordinator, and that's how I came to join is uh Jungle Girls Fundraising Coordinator.

So when I started, I was just doing changes to the website.

Uh uh like uh that had to do with uh fundraising, like adding crowdfunding donors or uh changing some text and stuff.

And then when the um founders uh and the original trustees decided to step down, it kind of created like a gap or a maintenance gap of who was going to who was uh traging uh the pull requests and stuff like that.

So being the only person, the only trustee who had been working with the website, it automatically fell to me.

So I started also doing the programming for the Jungle Girls uh website and maintaining it.

And uh Carlton has been uh a great help because I used to have like my pull requests, it would take time to have them uh reviewed.

I actually have to ping Rachelle and she would review them.

But Carlton has been hand uh very hands-on reviewing some pull requests and helping me with uh technical direction, and he also managed to get uh you know some new volunteers.

We have um Mark.

Is it Mark Walker?

It's Mark, it's Mark Walker, I think.

He has uh he helped us uh migrate from Django 2.

Uh two, which was targeted because of Django Suit 2, Django 3.2.

He has also been helping us with translation, so it's something that we what that was our goal for last year.

We wanted to be more inclusive and make sure that if we could get uh trans people can see Django Girls website in their language if we have translators for that language.

So uh that was uh one major change that we have on the Django Girls website, and uh most of the work has been thanks to Mark Walker.

I'm also doing some small things on the website, but it's really been refreshing to have uh new volunteers uh coming onto the project in the form of Calto and Mark, you know, and we've actually been having more people stepping up to to help with the website.

Uh Ramon um Saraiva from Brazil, and we have uh another lady who submitted uh another pull request to help us with uh application application management system for our workshops.

So it's been great actually.

Cartain has been awesome.

Anna's been very generous saying I did it.

I helped for a couple of weeks.

He pinged me and we chatted and we talked through some issues, and then Mark came along, and Mark was just like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna fix that, I'm gonna fix the other.

So he's been the real, you know.

He has been um also helping even review my PRs so things move faster now because uh if Carlton doesn't respond, I know I have uh Mark is a backup to help me with that, so it's been uh great uh doing that.

I came along, did a little bit, we put out a bit of a call and we managed to get you know Mark to come along.

We found and we managed to get a few contributors, and now it's it's got a kind of momentum and it's going really well.

And if it's kind of like that's all it takes, is if we can just you know reach out to one or two people in the community, get a little bit of input, then all of a sudden it's not one person sweating away by themselves getting burnt out, which is you know it's all the difference.

There that doesn't exist in Europe.

We're starting from scratch each time.

Um so we've talked about, and maybe Carlton to you, some better options around how we do that going forward.

I mean, like Sasha, she did many, and then in the end she had a post saying I'm gonna have to step down because I can't keep organizing these conferences on a volunteer basis, and that's totally cool and that's totally expected, but can we can we not uh pay somebody?

We've talked about money for you know a bit, um, or can we can we um codify the knowledge and can we um I don't know so this is I guess question my last question to you Anna is like what do you think we can do in this in this space?

I mean, and obviously it needs a bit of volunteer bootstrap, but can we make it sustainable and self-sustaining, like the fellow program fellowship program?

So what we were thinking as a board is it would be great if we could have uh a European version of uh of DEFNA, uh like what the PSF has with uh European.

We have uh an organization that is registered in Europe that is responsible for that has the Django con uh Europe license with the DSF.

And then uh they can change leadership like the way the DSF changes leadership, the way uh Django Girls was able to change leadership from the founders Ola and Ola and their original trustees and pass on the patron to us.

And after a while, most of us are going anyway to step down from Django Girls and other people come on board.

So that's something that we were looking into.

And then the on the email thread there was uh uh a question that was raised about the legal issues if the organization was set up in in the EU and not uh the EU and Europe, you know, that confusion thing.

Yeah, so

Yes.

And then uh the person she spoke to said Europython wasn't registered in Sweden by design because they were trying to avoid the Euro, uh the EU and Europe thing, but that's where most of the volunteers lived at that time, and then it was registered in Sweden.

So probably maybe the concerns that uh Marcus had uh if we moved the if we gave those licenses to say the German Jungle Association about being in the EU, maybe it's something that we could overlook.

What we need is uh finding uh a board of volunteers who are willing, whether they are in uh whether it's the Dutch Jungle Association or the German Jungle Association or a new body that is set up wherever in Europe that's willing to take up the responsibility.

I think it would make uh this uh easier for the DSF.

And then being in Europe, they can always uh find new community members or give licensing um find new organizers to move from one venue to the other, the same way EuroPython does, though it's registered in Sweden.

So that's what I heard.

Uh that's the vision that I have.

That's that's why I'm thinking we should go with uh uh this um jungle con Europe thing, and also setting up standards.

I realized that during the years there were okay, there were some steps that we missed as the board in managing Django Con, uh especially Django Con Europe, that we're also trying to address.

But I think it comes, it stands out from the issue that uh most of the decisions that have the way things have been done uh with the board, they haven't really been like written down.

Like you uh will yet to come and you know uh set structures in the tree, uh in the treasure department, you know, those monthly reports, annual reports, and stuff like that.

And it took some time.

And I think this year what we are trying to do as the board is to try and document everything down so that even if we have a new board uh at the end of the year, we just refer to them.

This is how you do things.

If they don't follow through, then at least it's not an issue about uh a knowledge gap or some information not being passed around.

Yeah, and uh one thing that uh last uh during last year's board elections, I actually responded to a tweet a little bit late.

Somebody wanted to know the officer roles, like what they do and what's involved.

And I realized that when we do a call for call for nominations, we don't tell people what's really involved in uh in that role.

Maybe it might make the blog post longer, but it will be good to just have like uh a PDF file that you link to that has got all the responsibilities of each officer role, and people can see uh what will be involved if they volunteer for a position and what's expected of them if uh if uh and they are encouraged to bring new ideas and whatnot, it also helps them with their applications to join the board.

So I think what we are trying to do this year, and I hope I will have time because my age started you know uh very busy and it's only January.

But uh I think it's something that uh I'm going to try to make time for to make sure that we document everything.

Um, how we handle Django Con licenses, how we handle uh uh even the fellowship program, everything else, so that the board knows the new board members, they know what they are supposed to do and how they can improve things and they move forward from there.

So this is the feedback that I was supposed to give you and markers on the way forward with uh DjangoCon Europe.

But we just need to find a board of volunteers, maybe whether it's registered elsewhere and not in German or in uh Netherlands.

But we need people who take wherever they are, they take ownership of DjangoCon Europe and then we see how things uh go forward.

But but we are hoping that this is for 2024.

Uh, for 2023, we are going to do a call for volunteers uh a little bit earlier, maybe by end of I think by February or end of February, we should do a call for volunteers for DjangoCon Europe 20 2023, so that at least we have an organizing team, hopefully by April, which will give them time to organize within the year because we can't last year we had uh the conference, I think in was it July or what?

So that means that the new team wouldn't have time to also enough time to organize a conference during the period that's normally reserved for them.

That's why DjangoCon Europe should be in September and DjangoCon US in October.

So we are also trying to manage that bit.

But I if we could find a sustainable way of having a European organization running that, I I think that would be great for the DSF board.

And it would also serve as a guidance for other continents if they can have uh that structure as well, which may be difficult for Africa and Asia, because I know for Africa, I know we are different states, and uh it's difficult to have an organization that that crosses border, it operates in other countries.

We are sovereign states, I know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think if we could have that model, it would be great for the DSF, it would be great for Django Code Europe and the Django community uh at large.

What I liked about the answer was it's kind of docs, or it didn't happen.

It's like you document it all.

We need to like list out what we're what we're doing and separate it out.

And you know, so we've done those steps so someone can take over.

And also, you know, as we look at the bylaws, you know, another thing is I mean, Katya has taken up a lot of work as DjangoCon chair.

I mean, personally, I think all seven people should be an officer of something, right?

Like we already we have DjangoCon, you know, we have community, which I mean the Django survey, which uh we've revitalized, that's quite a bit of work, as well as merchandise, which I set up and it sort of sits there, like lots can be done there.

We could easily have a fundraising person to coordinate with JetBrains or whomever every year, which I also do.

And I know you have your own list, right?

I so part of it is having these things documented and set up so that when there is a new board or there's continuity, it's like, right, being on the board means these are the things that we do, and somebody has to do them.

Because if it doesn't get taken over in the first meeting, it doesn't really get done, right?

So that's that's kind of what's nice this year about having the same board is people are moving into roles and we're separating that out.

Um for for me, that's one of the things I want to maybe the last big thing I want to do this year is update the bylaws and document better what the board actually does.

Um so people get credit for doing it, and also it's expected of them.

And if they can't do it, okay, someone else does it.

But it's not something where Anna and I, but especially Anna, is doing everything because it isn't documented, which was uh you've done so you didn't answer how many hours you've been doing, but I mean we were emailing for hours a week.

Uh the uh the Django Con Europe hybrid conference last year, it's just you know, it made everything crazy.

The year started crazy last year because of that announcement, and we had to re-look on how we do things and try and formalize processes.

And I think if that's if we can do uh just that formalize things uh this year, it will be great for the DSF code going forward.

And also sometimes I think one of the things that I I have I had to learn, um, most of the time people mean well, especially when they are volunteers.

Uh the issue is they just don't know that they are doing something wrong.

And one of the things that I've had to learn was to uh slow down, you know, think about things and then respond.

And uh instead of you know, the outcries that you know that take place on the email on the DSF membership email list, uh they stem up from somebody just made an announcement.

Uh they meant well.

This year they announced uh a possible in-person, a possible hybrid, a possible online conference, of which uh maybe if that had been done uh well last year, that would have been better.

But it taught us also a lesson as a JS support that we actually have to check these things through and then uh check the wedding before things go out.

But I think one of the things that I've learned is uh yeah, we need to be a little patient with with the volunteers, especially so that we can keep getting more volunteers.

It's uh it's not easy being a volunteer, and it's not easy when people call uh call you out uh and bring the president.

Uh it's a good thing we're not on Twitter because when that announcement was made, every board member who was on Twitter was tagged in you know in complaints, but uh

Uh I think I I think I saw it after I saw I saw the tag after 10 days.

It's a good thing that also I'm not active on Twitter, so you can tag me and and then uh maybe after 10 days I will just see, oh, I was mentioned here, then I respond.

But um everybody meant well last year things were crazy and things are still crazy, and uh sometimes we we see things differently because of where we are and what's happening in our community.

But I think we just need to be a little patient with each other until the pandemic, you know, uh subsides and everything is back to normal.

So yeah, last year there was so much uh work I was doing, uh, yet put in actually a lot more hours.

Uh it was almost like the hours that I was putting in for Django Girls.

Um, but anyway, we yeah, we survived.

And hopefully this year things will be better, and uh we end up there with a lot more done and uh things more documented so that uh going forward things are a lot smoother for the next uh Django Software Foundation board of directors.

So yeah.

I see it, the board members see it.

I think most people have no idea.

I know they don't know what you do, but you've done so much and do do so much.

So thank you for that.

And I hope this podcast raises a little awareness around all the things you have to juggle as a volunteer.

Oh, you're

That's why we need to.

Uh on so yeah, it's been great having you on the board, Will.

Thank you for all you do, especially in the treasure uh department.

Everything is so organized, and uh I know you Frankie Catherine.

And since I became president, I've never, I think I've maybe I've responded to fundraising issues once or twice, but uh I've never had to, you know, take that up or as well.

So it's been great having you on the board as well.

Well, and I I sort of said I do think the things that I've brought on are beyond treasure, so I think whoever's next, or if I stay on, um, there needs to be a little division there.

Any case, we've we've talked for uh a little over an hour.

Thank you so much for taking the time, Anna.

We have your website listed.

Um, as you said, you're if anyone wants to hire you, you're on the market, though it seems like maybe Google has the inside track.

And is there anything you want to add on that?

But last year I got invited to attend the uh Google Tech Learning series for uh Europe, Middle East, and Africa uh and Africa.

So I'm just going through the study materials that they gave us and see if it doesn't work for Google, then I'll uh uh I'll try other companies.

But um I I would want to see how this goes because if you get exposed to some information, you need to use it.

Uh I found the program was awesome.

I'm reading their book, it's it's really a good read.

Uh, I'm enjoying it.

So yeah, but uh I think starting from April, maybe that's when I'll be interviewing seriously.

So, but for now, any approaches to IRM, I just might not respond because I don't want to be distracted from what I'm aiming for.

But uh yeah, it's been good uh interfacing with the Google fellows and uh yeah, so I want to see how that goes.

But I'm actually looking for a role.

So we are at DjangoChat.com, Chat Django on Twitter, though I'm not on Twitter, but there is a Twitter account for our podcast.

And Anna, again, thank you for joining us and taking the time.

You're welcome.

We'll see you next next two weeks.

Join us next time.

Bye-bye.