Transcript: Django Fellow - Mariusz Felisiak

I'm Carlton Gibson, joined as ever by Will Vincent.

And we have a special guest today, Mariusz Feliciak, my fellow Django fellow.

Hi Marius.

Hi Carlton.

Hi Will.

So Marius, let's begin.

You're a Django fellow like myself.

So let's let's first of all talk about how you got into Django, and then perhaps we can get on to what the Django Fellowship is and what we do.

So tell us about how you found Django and how you how you got into that.

And most of this time I worked with Ora databases, and in the same time I used uh Django heavily.

It seems that it's not a common combination, it was quite rare.

When in 2015, I think Django Fox Post announced that they are trying to find someone that will help in maintaining the Django Orac backend, the entire Orac infrastructure and everything that is related with Orac.

Because if they will not find anyone, then they will consider to remove the Orac backend from the core because it's really hard to maintain without an expert that is using it daily.

I decided that maybe that's the best time to start to contribute to Django to help them with maintaining Orac infrastructure.

And to be honest, I was really surprised at the beginning with such a warm and friendly welcome.

Because basically at the beginning, as I was a person that nobody really knows.

And after a few weeks I started to be responsible for the Oracle CI infrastructure.

This became a part of my daily routine to be honest.

So after my normal day of work, I checking new tickets, try to find bugs in especially in the Oracle backend at the beginning, but then I moved also to another part of Django.

I tried to find some small optimization cleanups, reviewing pull requests, which is not really a common thing to do because most of contributors would like to submit patches and be a part of Django, be one of authors of Django, but there's only a small amount of people that really would like to reviewing uh to review tickets and uh check if they work properly.

I mean we'll come on to what the felt the fellowship role and what that is in a minute, but yeah you said you were doing this after your work, so it was like you employed, we're using Oracle at work as well, yeah.

Uh and after normal uh day of work, after eight hours, uh I came back to home and used my uh computer to uh contribute to Django.

So it was quite a hard time for me because also in the same time uh I tried to defend my PhD.

Uh I also have a family, uh a small kid, etc.

So it was quite hard uh time for me.

Yeah, because

So I mean how how did you manage that?

Were you allowed to contribute as part of your work, or was it purely on your own back or purely extra time?

Yeah, but now finally I have uh some free time because uh Django is my daily work, so yeah, uh I don't need to uh do this in my extra time.

But but but but still probably I spend some extra time in Django.

It doesn't need to be a Django, so you can contribute to one of Django third-party package, you can contribute to any other open source uh package, there is plenty of them.

Uh there is a there's plenty of maintainers that uh really would like to uh get your help.

Uh that was not so obvious for me at the beginning when I started to to work uh in an open source world.

Uh because uh I imagine that all open source packages and their maintainers are just some kind of superheroes out that know everything and uh uh and it's um it it probably will not be helpful for them to to to to to get any any time or uh any code from here.

I don't know.

I don't know whether all projects, but most projects most maintainers could do with a helping hand, right?

They could do with uh your input.

And it was also quite surprised uh uh for me that uh I know after sending five or six pull requests to to this package, it maintained asked me to hey maybe we'll create a Django request team and you'll uh help me to maintain this field website.

I I was really surprised uh also with uh such a world welcome, uh, because it was someone's uh work and uh uh he gave me an access to his repository and and asked for help.

It it was uh small but big stuff for me uh and

I was curious, Carlton, since you also got started with a number of packages, if that was a similar case where a couple PRs in, the maintainer says, here's the store, here's access, because in you know non and non-open source engineering context, no one would do that, but it seems actually quite common uh in open source if they get a sense that you're a reputable actor.

Um I guess you can always revert everything, but people are pretty trusting once you've crossed a bar.

I mean the issue is time, right?

So you know, I've got um a few projects that I want to work on over the summer, and the reality is we're halfway through the summer and I've you know not had very much time to work on them at all, but you know, I'll chip away and you know I'll get to do a release in the autumn.

But the the cadence for that kind of um that kind of management is very much slower than you know something that's fully maintained with paid time simply because it's volunteer effort.

And so if you can come along and say, look, I'll fix this issue, or I'll you know, triage tickets, or I'll that's amazing.

Um I don't know a single maintainer who's not gonna jump at that because I don't know any project which has got more hands on it than is needed to keep it going.

Uh well uh Marius, for you, um, what was that process like uh becoming a fellow?

How did how much work did um Carlton need to do to indoctrinate you, or what was that onboarding process like?

Because when we had Tim Graham on, um Carlton and Tim talked a little bit about that process, but what was it like for you?

Because that was that wasn't that long ago.

Uh I had access to the Django repository.

I I was aware of how to um backboard changes, how to review tickets, how to uh triage tickets, uh etc.

So I know the entire uh process.

Uh mainly uh I I can say that uh especially I should be thankful uh to uh Tim Graham for that.

Uh because uh from 2017 when I um became a part of uh a member of Django Core Team, uh he helped me a lot uh with uh reviewing tickets, uh with the entire process, with a lot of tips and uh how to do uh some things.

Uh so I'm extremely thankful for uh to to him, to uh I can say Scheiberger, uh, because he was responsible for the ORAC backend um uh previously.

Uh of course to to Simon Charet, who's our uh ORM star in in the jungle.

So if we have any uh uh heavily uh ORM specific uh issue then we can also ask him for help.

Uh but I I don't think that the entire process of uh becoming uh a Django fellow was uh really tough for me.

I I just switched from doing uh almost the same with my extra time to uh normal daily work.

Maybe with some uh small uh differences like releasing Django.

Yeah, previously I uh didn't know how to release Django.

Uh there is a new version of Django, but uh now I can do this.

Um I I got I got the fellow role from the base of my work on DRF and Django Filter and you know other packages, but Marius has already been there and working on the ORM.

And you know, when Tim said he was going to step down, I was a bit like wow, Tim knows so much.

How's it gonna work without him?

And then when the fellow committee then they nominate when they picked Marius, I was like, wow, that's the perfect person.

It's uh you know, exactly what I'm saying.

You were saying how thrilled you were, and then you've been saying the same thing the last couple months.

Um I find that uh very helpful.

I almost wonder actually for you two fellows, um, in the same way that Tom Christie does a uh monthly update, if perhaps more visibility on the roles that you that you got that you both are doing would be helpful to the community.

So that you know, if tickets that we've reviewed on track or um or PRs that we've reviewed on GitHub, um we see those.

There's other work that we do, like security work, which we don't put in those those fellow reports, but the yeah, well maybe

Yeah, maybe.

So what are we doing now?

What what's the uh

Uh when they asked what you are doing as a Django fellow, and when I try to explain them that it is not uh mainly related with uh writing a Django, with writing uh uh code today.

Django code, they was quite surprised that uh it is not the biggest part of our uh job.

So we are mainly responsible for um reviewing tickets, uh for uh treashing tickets, for reviewing pull requests.

Um I think that's the main part of uh our job.

Uh so my daily routine starts from uh checking Django updates uh with checking all events uh on our uh track instance, comments that people add, new tickets, uh etc.

Uh I started I uh mainly start from uh reviewing tickets, reviewing and unreviewed tickets, uh and after that uh reviewing pull requests, uh left some comments.

Uh we are also responsible for maintaining uh CI infrastructure.

Uh we are also responsible for um being for example on IRC channel and other support uh Django channels to uh to to uh be one of the line of supports for for for for users, but we have so many uh people that are involved in uh supporting users on Django users uh

Google Group or in Django IRC channel uh that uh it is not a it is not the biggest part of uh our daily work.

So mainly charging tickets, uh reviewing pull requests, uh merging them, backporting changes, but we are also uh checking Django security group, uh discussed uh security issues, uh if it's a security issue or not, uh, how to solve them.

Uh mainly that's it.

Yeah.

We're uh we'll link to the Django developers and Django users groups because I'm I'm looking now at the monthly fellow reports that you um you both put out.

Um so for folks who do want to see, there is a lengthy, detailed report.

Uh just this is the separate question of communication within Django, and it is when you use it, it uh Google groups work, but um maybe not the most public-facing forum for stuff.

But there's been a lot of work there, and then there's also been issues on Django Project.com.com, and then there's um Django people, and there's Django Packages, and you know, there's there's there's all these other extra sites.

Django Snippets, I think, is under the um Django organization now as well, or has been for years, I don't know.

But that there's these other bits of the kind of Django ecosystem that obstensibly Marius and I are meant to maintain as well, or part of our remit is to keep those maintained.

We just don't have the time because we're working on the the core Django project, um, the Django, you know, open source project, the Django.

And so one thing that's really been coming to me is that is when as an as another way that people could contribute is in all these other things around the community, which I've been coming to realize are part of the fellow role, but which are almost unmaintained because there just isn't the bandwidth there to support them.

Is there a a language or framework Django can borrow from?

Um I mean, because this is a hard problem.

And so those solo efforts can have a canonical, you know.

I'm thinking of Vue or Laravel where there's one person who's really driving it.

I guess um DRF, it's you know, it was you and Tom Carlton for quite a while.

I mean I think there's things like Django Packages, which has been around for a long time, which is super, which is great.

Um and there's Django snippets, which again has been around since the early days of Django, and but they're not really picked up and loved.

And we should we either need to sort of say to them, well, say either we need to go to the DSF members mailing list, which if you're not a member of the DSF, join it, as we say every week almost.

Um, but we either need to go to that mailing list and say, hey, there's there there are these resources that need maintaining.

Can we find some volunteers to help maintain those?

Or we need to end of life them and scale back a bit.

Um, I don't know.

What do you think, Maris?

Because you you I saw you a week or two ago, you ended up spending you know quite a lot of time maintaining Django people.

Um so what happened there, and what do what are your thoughts on the scope of the of the Django project?

o people.

Um and to be honest, it's it's still something that uh we did not understand uh how it uh was happening.

Probably some issue in Hiroku, but it's it's it's it's it's hard to understand what really happened.

But yeah, I spent the entire day on bumping requirements on uh redeploying uh Django people on Hiroku, etc.

But previously before this issue happened, uh I I did not really uh spend time uh in maintaining Django in maintaining Django people.

So uh but suddenly an issue appeared on on the Django people that they have uh strange sites instead of Django people, and maybe we should uh fix this.

Uh so I also whoa, what what what just happened?

It's really strange.

Maybe some uh outdated requirements, let's bump them.

Nope, nope, it it wasn't better.

Uh so yeah, but it it is it seems that currently it works uh fine, but but we have a lot of uh packages uh that are currently in the Django uh org, like uh Django Docker box uh that that that we uh uh moved from uh Tom Forbes uh repository under uh under the Django uh and uh also

it uh

What is that?

And because that's I think that's gonna be a really useful tool.

And can you explain what that is and how people might use it?

Yeah, so um in the Django Docker box we have uh uh ready-to-use containers with a different version of uh all databases that are currently supported uh by Django, with different versions of uh libraries, for example, uh GIS libraries.

Uh and um you can use them to run tests, you can use them to we we can use them to find issues uh on different versions because our CI infrastructure uh currently works with a single version of uh each database, uh mainly the last that the uh the newest supported version of uh each database.

Yeah, and in the Django Docker box uh we have uh all supported versions uh with the entire test suit, uh, and we are able to catch some small issues in in the previous version of uh each database, like I don't know, this single test is uh failing on PostgreSQL 9.4, for example, yeah, or MariaDB 10.1 point something, which we'll not be able to catch witho

ut it.

And it is also really helpful for uh for users because you don't need to uh set up the entire test suit.

Do you think do you think using Django Docker box is a um better way forward for new contributors?

I mean, assuming they're happy with Docky, or assume like you think that's the way forward to recommend to new users to get going with the Django test suite and get going with the DC.

Yeah, exactly.

Uh it's easier, yeah.

Especially if you are trying to submit patch uh to the ORM.

It's it's the hardest part because you need to support uh all database versions.

And so speaking of all database versions, you're you you you said you got into Django because of your use of Oracle and you could you were support, you want chose to support the back end.

So for all of us who aren't using Oracle, what what's the offer?

What's you know, because it's got this reputation as the enterprise beast, but you obviously have fun with it.

So, you know, give us the 10-second elevator pitch.

What's Oracle for us and why should we use it?

I I know that is uh maybe not as uh supportive for users and developers.

That that's the main issue I think with the Orac database that is not uh uh that is not developers-friendly, just like PostgreSQL, for example, or uh other databases.

But it is changing in in the in the last few years.

So you you you can see that there is a process uh of uh changes in the orac database and it uh starts to uh looks like a uh almost like a PostgreSQL.

So uh for example, uh a year or two ago, they uh added a feature that is uh really similar to the um different databases uh like in the PostgreSQL.

Yes, we have you can have uh different uh databases in the same uh engine in the same uh instance.

Yeah, so it I think that it was a big step forward.

Uh now they are trying to support JSON fields and uh and uh a few other features that they added uh recently.

Uh so it's it's better than it was a few years ago, uh but currently I'm not using it daily, so uh and I'm thankful for that, uh to be honest.

I think that the the biggest uh advantage of using Orac database is uh the entire enterprise management, uh set of enterprise management utilities that that they get for you.

So probably not find so many uh so many features uh for DBAs like uh in the Orac database.

Uh but but few but a few years ago um they uh take under the Django, they take under the uh Oracle uh organization uh Atlist Python driver that was previously maintained by a single person.

Uh currently uh uh currently he's uh Oracle employee, and I think that he's it is his daily work to maintain uh Python driver for the Oracle database.

So at least some uh step forward, but but yeah, uh they did not try to uh reach us.

I'm not sure if uh we try to reach them to uh to to uh get some funds.

It's it's hard for me to say.

We should reach out to this giant megacorp Oracle and say, hey, can you give us some peanuts so that we can maintain the support in the leading uh or one of the leading Python web frameworks?

So who would we who would do that reach out, Carlton?

This is actually just so we make this for those listening.

Part of the problem with Django is that there's a lot of cooks, like who who would anybody who's empowered to do that reach out?

I could email them, Frank could email Frank, president of the DSF board, could email them, but we'd have to put that on his radar.

Um, you know, any member of the DSF, anybody, any user could be like, hey, I I use Django and I listen to this podcast on Django, and they said that Oracle don't fund maintenance of the back end.

How about you fund it?

Like, but yeah, ultimately I guess we should reach we should reach out and say, hey, dear Oracle, please can you support us?

Because it's a huge organization.

What yeah.

I mean I mean we don't have to spend the the whole episode on Oracle, but I they must it must be a solved problem for some other frameworks or languages.

It can't always just be this beast that is totally disconnected from the programming world that uses it and pays their bills.

Anyway, maybe someone from Oracle is listening.

What would be like what what would be helpful?

I'd be nice if like for you both, what would what would you like people to know about fellows that they don't already know?

And what could the community do to make your roles easier?

Uh so uh one one thing that uh I I like to say if you reach any open source project jungle or any other than uh be polite to maintainers because because they are uh really people that uh in in main cases have their own job, have their own family, and maintaining open source projects is is not uh what they would uh

do daily for uh eight hours.

Uh and uh sometimes in an open source world you you you reach uh that kind of discussions or conversation con conversation when uh people are uh just uh um arguing or or trying to uh say not really supportive things like you are not maintaining this package very uh well so I will not use it here.

And they are not uh they are not understand that uh it is not something that uh an open person would like would like to hear and uh in most of cases they uh shouldn't really they they don't really bother off uh that kind of comments, yeah.

Um if you at if you're at a startup, there's often a case where you're less happy as it grows because the numbers on the screen increase, but the amount of complaints you get from users, that's you know, you hear those and you have to deal with those.

So even though you've gone from a hundred to a ten thousand users, day to day you're going from five to fifty complaining people, and so you're just sort of miserable because there's that disconnect between digital and the human side of what you're doing.

And I for for you both as well, you

The reason why no, so why was the fellowship program created was because no one was triaging tickets and no one was reviewing pull requests.

And it can't it it it can be really difficult.

You know, you've got a pull request that's three years old on a ticket that's nine years old, nine years old that's been updated, and some more tests have been added, but comments which were vital four years ago haven't been addressed, and to to find that history and to really work out what's going on, it can you know it's it's really hard work, and then you get to the end of the day and you're like, wow, I'm exhausted.

And that's why the fellowship role exists, because that work simply can't get done, and we're working our butts off to get us to do as well as we can.

And if people people all I guess I would ask is people recognize that and people realize that we're doing our best, and if you don't agree with us, that's fine.

Just say, hey, I don't agree and try and explain why, rather than the passive aggressive, oh, I'm gonna stop using Django.

It's like you

I mean, that's not yeah.

Yeah, it's very rare.

You need to always remember that uh patches are welcome, yeah.

If you want to move it forward, prepare a patch and we'll review it as soon as as we will be able to.

So in the track system, there are patches which there are lots of patches submitted.

There's 200 open pull requests, but lots need uh flagged with need improvement.

They've got reviews on them or they need documentation, so they've got reviews.

There's only about 20, which are sort of they not with a review already in place, and that that 20 rolls over pretty quickly.

You know, you we get there, we get there quite fast.

We I think we do quite a good job, and you know, Marius is um is amazing, and I do the best I can.

Uh so Django has a number of new features coming forward, I guess most prominently um async.

What are you excited about that's coming to Django as opposed to the maintenance role that you have to spend a lot of time on?

And uh in the same time, you are responsible for uh adding this to Django for the quality uh of this code because partly we are responsible for for that, yeah, for not creating uh new regressions, uh etc.

Uh so I had to learn uh a lot about uh async with this in this first patch, yeah, and probably I will learn even more when we'll uh at async support for for views and to another part of uh to another part of Django.

Uh I think it it will be a uh a big challenge.

I'm not uh sure if we'll be able to reduce in the Django 3.0 to uh at async support for for views, but we'll see because we have only uh one month uh to the feature freeze and also a lot of other uh features in the line like uh uh adding Inus, for example, to uh Django RM, uh adding uh new uh current currently we added a new exclusion constraints to PostgresQL

We uh have also a lot of uh new features that are waiting in the line.

And uh currently, when we have only one month uh to the feature of freeze, uh we can see uh uh a beginning of this pressure.

That's uh that's my new feature.

You should add it because if not, then I will need to wait another few months to to the next Django release.

Yeah, so uh please please add it at this last day before the feature fleece.

You should review it and and uh and uh move it into in into core.

Uh so we we need to be a really uh uh assertive people, uh at least at in in this few last weeks before the feature fleeze.

Uh but we have so many new features currently in in in in the Django 3.0 that if even if we will not add any new feature to Django 3.0, it is uh already astonishing.

Uh 8th of September, I think.

Yeah, well perhaps we want to um editing note, move this episode up, um, Carlton, just so that people are aware of that deadline who maybe wouldn't be.

I think a lot of people aren't aware of the schedule and for your yeah, so if someone has submitted something, they're aware of that.

Um for a regular person, they're not aware that by September you know it's coming in December, more or less.

And there you know, there'll always be half a dozen little mini regressions in some new feature, but the point of the having the feature freeze is to allow time for those bugs to be found.

But you know, we we have to be I don't know, kind of certain that there isn't bugs.

We can't just go, oh, we've still got three months to fix it.

It's like no no, this is if it's not ready, we we can't bring it in at this point.

Right.

Any projects you want to make side projects you want to mention, Marius?

Twitter, email, do you have any preference?

Uh because um basically we are there for then for the entire uh day, maybe not actively, but uh when I start my job, I'm just uh opening RC channel and I get the entire history from from the last few hours yeah so we are able to respond to to to to any comment there so if you have uh an issue with uh I don't know running a test suit or you would like to propose a new feature but you

are not sure if uh this should go to the core uh you can add a new you can add a new comment on or uh or on IRC channel and if not uh one of us then then probably um any other fork from uh community will respond to that I I think that the IRC channel is is is the best and the most responsive uh way to to to get help in using Djang

o and uh to get help with starting to contribute to Django also.

I'm less so I'm more of an asynchronous methods person so you know for me if you want help get setting up the test suite email Django core mentorship and I'll get that and reply there.

You know I'm on IRC but I

Thank you Marius thank you very much for coming on to the show um it's been super having you and thank you for joining us everybody we're on Twitter at uh chatjango and um Djangochat.com join us next time bye bye