Transcript: Django Girls - Rachell Calhoun

hi welcome to another episode of django chat fortly podcast on the django web framework i'm

carlton gibson joined as ever by will vincent hello will hi carlton join join us this week

he's rachel calhoun hello rachel how are you hi i'm good how you doing marvelous marvelous thank

you for coming on rachel you're um part of um django girls that we're going to talk a bit

about in a bit but tell you what how about you tell us how you got into django and your backstory

and all of that and we'll begin from there all right um how i kind of got into programming all

right so well um i well i kind of gotta go a little bit farther back than that i was um i

studied you know foreign languages in college because you know i was told do what you love

and i did the thing that was easy for me so um and i got to travel that was really fun spanish

and french and then after i graduated i went to um i went to korea to teach english there

as one does with a spanish and french degree and then i uh was totally natural i was there for a

while and um i kind of hit a point where i couldn't go anywhere and i i had an interview actually um

for an e-publishing app and they needed someone with you know uh english teaching experience and

some business experience and some tech experience and i was like well i have one

so i tried it out and during the interview they like they asked me you know do you know what html

is and i was like um yeah you know something with the web i don't know like uh that's like the level

i was starting at so i said i didn't get that job obviously but i figured that'd be a good time to

start um you know learning some programming because i figured it could help me with anything

i did and um from there i started i did a couple days of javascript but then luckily i found a

python group and i kind of that started my python journey i was in korea at the time in seoul right

Okay, so I knew you'd been in Korea because I met you at Jangokon US a couple of years ago.

Yes.

You took us around to a Korean barbecue, which is amazing.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

It's a great restaurant.

You knew what all the dishes were, which it turns out it didn't matter because they were all great.

But you were driving the menu there.

You were there for a little while.

You were there eight years, right?

I mean, that's because a lot of people, not a lot of people, but most people go and do a year, two, three max.

But eight years, that's a good commitment.

Yes, Will.

Thanks for aging me.

Yes.

If you're on this podcast, you're young, because Will and I are quite, you know, we're walking stick territory these days.

No, I say that with deep respect, actually.

So this was, so was this in Korean or was this an English speaking Python group in Seoul?

Well, I mean, we were just starting it.

So there were three people, myself and then a Pakistani who was working.

He's an Android developer and he was living there.

And this Korean who was a music, like pianist performance major in college.

I think she was in her last year, Soojin.

So we just started studying and it was just the three of us.

We did a lot of online courses.

We spoke in English and all the courses were like, you know, Coursera or edX or, you know, free platforms.

And we kind of like met every Saturday, you know, for a few hours at a coffee shop or at the university.

And yeah, did our courses there.

Okay.

So could I ask, how did you settle on Python then?

Because Android is traditionally Java.

and then a pianist has i don't know how a pianist chooses a programming language april right and

then you you learned a bit of javascript so how how is it you that you went uh because there was

a group meeting and they were gonna do it in english so i was like yeah let's try it and then

i i mean i liked them and it was very casual and um it was a nice group of people and yeah we did

that for like a year and then i wasn't really like falling in love with it i just kind of was it was

fun it was like a hobby because I like to learn as a hobby and um and then Jin from um he's Korean

American he came to Korea in Seoul and he taught us we did one day a flask and I was like okay

that's fun but and then we did Django and I was like wow okay and that kind of really clicked for

me and then from there um that that was the thing that kind of got me really um to take programming

seriously so yeah so it was a Django love affair yes instantly no it was just really nice for me

to kind of like you know write up like because we did scraping and games and stuff but that wasn't

really my thing and I just wasn't feeling it but then on um web development it was cool to see like

code I write instantly reflected in the product and and just get that instant response so I really

like that and then from there um Hassan he kind of he was always kind of on my shoulder kind of

pushing me to do this or he's like hey how about you do Django Girls hey there's this Django Girls

thing hey um and so i'm glad he did because i applied and you know we did it um and we had a

hundred did the workshop as you did the workshop as a student or as a as a organizer or as a right

i don't know all three you know um so the kind of theory is um my theory back then and kind of still

is you learn by doing and master by teaching so um i mean i i i wasn't an expert i had maybe a

couple projects of Django done um but I yeah I was the organizer and I didn't coach at that event

but I was mainly like um yeah just the main organizer for it so we had like 100 people

participate totally wow total and fantastic it was it was really great okay super and then oh

I could keep going though but um so that's kind of what got me started and then I think I don't

know i think hasan he sent me another link oh there's this um scholarship what was it django

under the hood i had no idea i was just like oh that's cool but um i didn't get it obviously

because i wasn't like a django expert right that was for and um and then i went to uh django con

europe i got a scholarship to go there and that for me kind of circling back to your question of

like why python and why django um that's kind of what made it i was teetering on the edge like

should i go javascript more front end and do like full stack should i dive into django and i went to

django con i think it was budapest that year and i just love the people right from the beginning

the community was really great for me um and so i was like yep these are my people this is what i

want to do yeah okay and so are you are you working now in the python django world yes um i am working

in Django and um I'm a freelancer so I have my own LLC and I have a few clients but um I kind of got

into that through the Django community as well um after DjangoCon Europe I um I was kind of

encouraged and pushed to apply for a talk at DjangoCon US and I got a talk accepted on git and

you know intro to version control and um then you know like I kind of started really taking it

seriously and i was like wow i could do this so um yeah i applied a bunch of jobs i got my first

programming job here in michigan in grand rapids um i moved here for the job and then

on my first day they uh gave me a code of ethics and they asked me to like

uh to sign it saying that i believe a marriage is only between a man and a woman

and i'm married to a woman so i could not sign this yes yeah and it was really difficult i saw

that i remember that coming um it was hard for me because i finally made it you know after years of

like trying to break through and i had to walk away so but it was for the best um i reached out

to the daniel community um jingle girls ola and ola and then they kind of connected me with jeff

triplet and he kind of you know connected me with some job opportunities and from then i had been

you know i started working remote from then and my own um llc and i haven't looked back i love it

um currently my i'm working with a medical device company and uh django backend and then also uh

contact tracing because because covid so that's interesting um to do some like really meaningful

work yeah that's quite high scale i guess at the moment yes it goes fast it's growing but um yeah

it's important stuff and so it feels good to like you know maybe help people yeah that was the real

front end of the culture wars um kind of moment that you've moved city you've gone for a job and

then you know to be put in a position where you can't take it is pretty strong but that okay i

don't know what i've got to say about it ever since i decided to kind of jump into the jungle

community i mean i'd never looked back and i never regretted it because you know they were always

there and they always turned up when i needed them and so like i'm extremely grateful for um

the people and and kind of that family familiar you know sense community yeah it's one of the

best things about it. No. Could you talk about, so, um, I mean, we could leap to the current

Django girls news, but were you, you know, after that initial soul meeting, were there other

involvements that you had, um, leading up to, you know, the recent news? Oh yeah. Um, so, I mean,

I've always been involved with Django girls since I, um, started programming basically in Korea.

And when I came to Michigan, um, we started a local branch here as well, both Django girls and

Pie Ladies. And I was also the translation kind of co-management for the tutorial

for Jingle Girls. So I was involved with that as well. And then I'm part of the support kind of

team. And yeah, that's kind of up leading up to now. And now recently, I'm sure you know the news

that Ola, Sendek, and Satarska had stepped down. So they asked us, a few of us, five of us, to

to step up to be the new trustees for the jail girls foundation yeah and that's really cool no

that because all of them did so much to begin and but then obviously you know like

takes over and you can't keep that going forever so to be able to handle on the baton that's kind

of the that's kind of the moment where it becomes a sustainable thing in itself yeah and i mean i'm

so grateful for them because if if they hadn't you know had been around and done what they did

with jingle girls i wouldn't be here either so um i'm just i mean i'm really grateful that i have

the opportunity to um do the same thing maybe for you know future programmers people that are just

stepping in now trying it out themselves okay so tell can you tell us about like so there's five

of you what's what's going on that you're the new steering council or something like that um yeah

so we kind of we're the trustees for the foundation we help make decisions um and kind of

yeah steer where it's going to go the but we are currently trying to put together an advisory

board to help us make those decisions just to kind of have more diversity and um include people from

all over the world because certain locations have different difficulties when they're putting on a

workshop that we might not consider or know about. So it's really important to have a bigger group

of people and more diverse. So right now that's kind of our focus. And also we've been focusing

a lot on remote workshops and getting those up and getting our tutorials and organizing manuals

up for people that want to run those and you know best practices because um currently you know

everything's kind of remote so yeah yeah yeah no exactly that because it's it's one thing running

a workshop um in a a shared space and a you know physical presence and another one how you're going

to do that online in the zoom call or whatever right and there's always uh you know problems

maybe internet speed for one or um uh you know some people don't have webcams um so there's like

even with those there can be a lot of difficulties um with creating that django girls kind of

friendly welcoming you know like energetic atmosphere in a remote um setting can be

difficult but i mean it also opens the door to be more accessible to people that maybe couldn't

have attended in-person um events so i mean either way you look at it there's a disadvantages and

advantages there so i mean we're doing we can with with our situation now yeah yeah no i mean

But that's a good point as well about the remote access, because like the Django Girls tutorial has become one of the sort of go-to tutorials for Django.

You know, there's a tutorial on the Django Docs, there's the DRF tutorials, there's the Django Girls tutorial.

These are like the kind of, how would I put, the cornerstone tutorials that are out there in the community.

And then there's lots of other ones around.

Yeah.

And so that's another thing we're trying to do is just update those and make sure that.

And this is, like, one of our big call to actions is, like, contributors, we need to always not even just update those docs and tutorials and everything, but also translate them.

So I think it's now 18 different languages, the tutorial.

And, you know, with every update, that needs to be translated as well.

So it's quite a big project to keep and maintain.

So we are always looking for people that want to help out with both the tutorial and the translations.

Okay. And if people did, if listeners do want to get involved and lend a, lend an hour, lend a couple of hours from time to time and when the mood takes them, how would they get involved in that, in that translation or updating effort?

Yeah. Well, everything like our resources are all on janglegirls.org. And if they have questions directly, they can email at hello at janglegirls.org. And that'll put them in touch with the people that know and can give them direct resources. But yeah.

Okay, super. I mean, so one thing that I've been thinking about a lot is how we get more contributors to Django itself that aren't in the traditional demographic, shall we say. So we have a lot of contributors, they're still mostly white, and they're still very male. You know, there's some non-white contributors, and there's the occasional non-male contributor.

And one thing I always thought was, well, you know, maybe there's an on-ramp from Django Girls, but the Django Girls tutorial is very much a beginner's tutorial.

And it's too much to expect someone who's just completed the Django Girls tutorial to then go on and be contributing to open source directly.

But do you think there's something we can do there?

I mean, if I just said to you, well, come on, what's the problem?

Why can't we get more non-male contributors?

What would you say?

What thoughts do you have or do you have any?

well um it's an excellent question um i have a lot of ideas and um kind of very ambitious goals

for general girls which i don't know that all of them are feasible but um you have to start

somewhere so one thing for me that um personally would be helpful is um so like let's say a

participant comes to the general girls workshop they do one tutorial and then that's kind of like

oh i can do the tutorial i can code cool so now what and then they kind of go back and they start

actually learning it. And I would love to, first of all, get some intermediate, like intermediate

material for Django Girls. So you have a blog post, what's next? And we have some resources

after the tutorial for follow up material, but I would love something more official,

that would be really cool. But I mean, that's a big project in itself. And then the next thing

would be is if we could partner somehow, um, with, you know, um, some companies or organizations

that, um, maybe do mentorship or, um, like a one-on-one, um, screen share. I know that,

you know, there's, uh, privacy and, and, and things, but that would be really cool to see

like what programming looks like, especially as a beginner in the real world. And, um, that,

that's kind of like my idea and it costs you know one hour of time for someone that's working um

and to answer questions or just to see or or maybe like work through a project together like so i had

a a scholarship through toptel and they um hooked me up they set me up with a one-on-one every week

for a year with a developer senior developer and we did projects together and he helped me work

through it and that was really valuable for me to see kind of how someone else worked but also get

get that instant feedback because I was a remote worker. I didn't really have, um, as much contact

with other developers, um, when I was just starting out. So something like that, um, would help, um,

in the Django space specifically. I mean, people that are already in the jail community, they could

kind of, um, you know, uh, take someone that's, that's more green and, and, and less experienced

and kind of, um, support them and, and, and, and help them kind of get started and be like their

mentor or sponsor um and i think that would help just to kind of break through the barrier um

when people first start you know contributing it can be quite intimidating um and like where

do we start what do we do but i think once you get that first um contribution or that first

kind of once you break through it it'll be a lot easier and then they can go by themselves um so i

think something like that would be helpful okay interesting i think i think you're right i mean

it's from the other side it's like oh you know this is just what you do you you know find a

take it over to PR. It looks so, so easy, but it's not right. Right. And, um, I mean, there's a lot

of little things that you don't know about, um, coming into a new project, especially if you're

a beginner, maybe you haven't contributed to any like, um, team project before. Um, and, and it's

just a little hints here or there that, you know, you need to know someone's there for you to ask

when you have those questions. I think that's really can be helpful. Um, I did that recently

with a friend of mine, with something she was working on. And she's like, Wow, I couldn't have

done this without you. And I said, Yes, you could have, it just would have taken you a lot longer,

and probably would have been more frustrating, maybe, you know, like, yeah, so I think that

that's, I mean, that's kind of how I got, you know, that's where I am, because people were

there kind of pushing me along. And, you know, always had an open ear for questions. And I think

knowing that, that someone's there for that would be helpful. Yeah.

The thing I'm thinking about your story learning program versus mine. And one thing that jumps out

is you were very good about seeking out a community and asking for help, which is its own

skill. I mean, because I just locked myself in a room for two years, and I don't recommend that.

But figuring out a way to... Oh, geez.

Well, basically. Yeah, essentially, that's what I did.

That sounds very lonely. Yeah.

Well, I had... Yeah. This isn't about me. But yeah, I don't recommend that per se. But

having a mentor would have been invaluable. And if I, you know, things like Django Girls,

and now that I've, you know, kind of like you on the, you know, somewhat on the other side,

there's the question of, well, how do you scale some sort of mentorship? Because what you were

saying about saving time, I mean, I think of the educational stuff that I create is I'm saving

people time. Yeah, they could figure it out. But if I can give it to someone in 30 minutes,

instead of 10 hours, and they know that it's correct, you know, that has value. But in terms

of the mentorship, you know, it does seem like it needs to have some sort of external structure,

right? Like, because we could probably think of a couple dozen Django developers, who if we said,

hey, here's this program, there's going to be some recognition, maybe there's even a little bit of

money, and you do an hour a week with someone, they would do it. But to do it on your own and

not have that machinery is really too much when someone's, you know, donating their time or doing

it at a discount. So I hope that that's something Django Girls can do. I mean, it'd be great if

Django itself could do that, though. I'm sure we, the board can, you know, help with funding.

But sorting out, you know, in the same way that I mean, Carlton mentors,

is one of the lead mentors for Google Summer of Code. If there was some sort of

10 people a year, Django fellowship, matched one on one, it was an hour a week.

you know but again it's we need people to do it but i think you know what happens is then people

who otherwise wouldn't have stuck with programming do get into programming and then like you right

like you're now you know one of the leaders of jango girls because you had that help and so you

want to pay it forward so you're all that much more involved in the community because the community

was able to to help initially um so just brainstorming how to how to keep doing the

kind of things that you all want to do and the other the other selling point is like like i said

you learn by doing but master by teaching like you really have to know it and you really like

um kind of solidify all your knowledge through teaching other people and and not only that but

like one thing that was very um valuable to me when i was working with other more senior developers

was i would ask them something like they would answer me like i don't know like in that i was

like oh okay you don't know everything okay so it's okay if i don't know everything and and it

was really important for me to see that so like those kind of things that just come out when you're

working with other people and seeing how they work, I think are important. But yeah, like you

said, like, I mean, it's possible to do it just I think, logistically, it would it would take a lot

of planning and kind of setup. But if we get it out there, I think it could be useful.

Yeah. And I wonder, I like, I mean, one of the great things about the Django Girls

tutorial is it's, it's something that, you know, it's a crud app, but it's something that everyone

does and can talk about, like there's a frame of reference. I mean, I often think, well, what if

there were five, you know, start with Django projects, and they're all some variation of

CRUD, of course. But if there's a common language that people can talk to, right, so that that makes

a lot easier, even for a mentor to say, Oh, I kind of know what this is. Whereas when you're dropped

in, I mean, if we asked five people to do a Django blog, they could all do a little bit differently,

which would be confusing for beginners, you know, be interesting for more advanced people.

But if there was, you know, yeah, a couple, like a stepping stone, I mean, in my books,

I sort of do that, actually. But of course, that's different than Django Girls. But I guess

I'm just rambling today. So I apologize. But I'm just trying to think of it's nice to have,

I think of that. But we like it when you write well. Then I have to listen to it when I edit

this podcast. But one of I'm curious for you, Rachel, with with teaching others, one thing I

think about is so crud, how do you get crud through to people, right? Because you can say

to someone, Hey, you just finished the Django Girls tutorial. You know how to build almost

every website out there. But people don't know that until they've said, Oh, well, a blog is the

same as a to do list is the same as you know, a Facebook clone is the same as do you have any

thoughts or experience with helping people make that leap? I think that you like for for me when

I was first starting, and I mean, no one has to tell you, excuse me, no one has to tell you that

I think you realize that because what happens is if you make the tutorial or I mean, you make the blog with Django Girls tutorial and then you're you want to make a to do list, you're like, OK, well, what if I just rename this, you know, blog post task or something?

And it kind of grows from there and you start realizing that you can shape it and edit it and kind of use that as your base for reference.

And so you that's I mean, for my me personally, so no one had to tell me that I didn't have to.

just kind of naturally happened um because that's all i knew so that's what i was going off of and

i just tweaked it and i made like five different versions of django girls blog um with different

you know as different websites and different um purposes yeah again this is sort of like the kind

of conversation like we would have on the django software foundation um as you know universities

like just thinking of places that have people learning and and some sort of money because it

is about unlocking just a little bit of money to um tee it up for people in the community to

to teach because i i mean personally i don't i didn't make that leap when i was starting out

with crud i mean i heard people say it but it just didn't register until i tried to build a

couple other sites and then i was like oh okay it was like the fourth or fifth crud site where

it sort of clicked um so i'm very aware at least my own experience that that leap can take a while

for folks to make yeah i um i personally like i don't know what other people feel but for me i

kind of do things and then later i understand them um because um it's through the process of

doing it that's how i learn um but you put a book in front of me it kind of you know i'd rather just

dive in and break things and then figure out why it's broken and then fix it obviously with projects

not with work but um yeah you know um and um the other point was that you were talking about

universities and stuff i know that um so i'm a data science uh i'm getting a a degree in um

data science at university of michigan uh master's degree and one of my professors is charles

severance he does he does uh python for every everybody i think and that's like one of the first

oh yeah python courses i did on corsair yeah and he also now has a django specialization

i haven't done it but um i have a friend who has and um i mean that's again like one more

you know resource that someone could follow up with after the django girls tutorial um and i

think that's you know like there there are more resources but yeah like having a community and

having someone that you can get instant responses um from would be i guess key like you said have

something set up talking about following up like do these django girls have any kind of idea of the

numbers of any of numbers of people who do the workshop and then go on to to work as a keep on

programming because it's not just these days you don't have to be a professional programmer to

program but um do you do any kind of follow-up any surveys anything like that to to track so the

total number of attendees i know is like 22 000 in 98 different countries the we did a follow-up

survey um i guess a year or two ago and at that time i think it was of the respondents we don't

know you know what i mean everybody didn't respond but like 20 or something ended up with

doing something in tech um just here in grand rapids though um i kind of keep in touch with

some of the attendees because we become friends but um like they don't necessarily do django but

one went into net network security um and another one you know went did a boot camp um and and does

like you know front end or whatever so it's really interesting to see them just kind of get that

spark of like yeah i could do this and then you know they go and do that other thing so i don't

we don't have like solid numbers and it's impossible really to you know to track you know

all those people down but um i mean a good percent and i think i mean if you use it or not if that's

your calling or not um but there's two sides that but there's going into tech right so the 20 to go

into tech that seems like quite a good high like a high number a good result and then there'll be

another equal amount probably who use it somehow you know they're at work doing some other job and

they go oh i know a little bit of python and they're able to automate something or other that

otherwise they wouldn't have been able to yeah exactly or maybe talk with developers that they

work with or you know understand or maybe make their own blog or website you know um for personal

things uh personal projects and stuff yeah there's like i mean so there's not you know success isn't

that someone becomes a developer it's that you know they feel good walking away and they think

that hey you know I can do this and it's fun that's kind of the goal of the workshop I was a

coach in Barcelona and I had a group and working through and there was a moment where they're going

through the ORM and they're in the shell and all of a sudden they start flying Django and it was

just magic to watch the faces as there's like little eyes pop open ah I'm like yes yes yes that

was success because whether they use it or not beyond that it's like yes you've seen it you've

got it you've it's learning you know yeah i think 20 i think 22 000 people through the workshop is

phenomenal success and i mean that's what i love about um you know jingle girls um and helping

people is just bringing them through and seeing them reach their aha moment of like um just where

where it makes sense where they get it right and like there's also those you know there's a bug

moments where they hate it and they can't you know but that's like that's you know development so um

but it i like a lot and that kind of has um yeah it normally involves static files yeah exactly

but yeah i i mean i really like that and the community because um i mean like there is a real

uh benefit to helping other people like neurologically like we feel good you know um

and it so yeah i mean that too so it helped people so i wanted to ask about you're studying

data science now what what's that like right because i think for maybe a lot of people in

the web realm that's sort of very interesting but uh maybe not fully explored like i'm curious what

have been kind of aha moments there and you know that intersection is really probably the future of

a lot of tech right data science combined with with web um so i'm just curious what what that's

been like studying data science coming from django yeah um so i kind of got interested in it because

i work with the medical device company and um one of the things going forward is potentially like

um, using big data to, you know, um, for, for patient information or whatever. Um, and I was

like, wow, yeah, that makes sense. And then I was, you know, just the more I kind of thought about

it, the more kind of powerful, um, it seems, um, and, and what you can do with data and the people

that control, uh, control and manipulate data, like, who are they? And speaking of like, you

know, women in tech and minorities in tech, like, you know, who, yeah, yeah. So, and then people

tell stories with that data. So it's important to me that everyone's stories are told and everyone's

represented in those. Not just stories, but in healthcare, you don't want to leave people out

and that could have really damaging consequences. So that's kind of my kind of inspiration to get

into it. But yeah, going into it, it's weird. It's different than I thought. So I don't have a

huge math math background which is challenging now because um we're doing quite a bit um or

research background and so i'm learning a lot and it's definitely it's a challenge but i'm enjoying

it um um but yeah and it has a splash of python that's kind of my kind of idea but it's interesting

um to see i'm not really sure i haven't gotten to the point to actually merge the two uh yet

because i'm still i'm like halfway through the program or maybe a third through um and we're

kind of just doing intro stuff and you know i'm getting my feet wet there um but uh i'm really

interested to see i think that'll be really powerful to you know um use what i learned from

there and kind of merge it with you know the web and and the tools that we we develop well i think

there's um things like drf add-ons which you know will um serializers for panda day pandas data

frames and things like that so you've got your kind of data science tools which you're using

then it's really easy to put those into an api which then you can then i don't know consume

however or put in a visualization on the web or yeah yeah using the tools that you already know

so yeah i mean i've done visualizations and stuff like you're saying pandas and and um some other

tools to do so i've i've used those for charts and visualizations and whatnot for um for you

know reports on the web and stuff like that but um i'm yeah i'm interested to see like bigger scale

how things can be used. Go ahead, Blaine. Oh, yeah, I was just curious, how do you find

formally learning programming given that you, you know, have a career entirely self taught?

You know, what's what are your thoughts on the classroom experience?

It's a it's an online program. And it's a little bit different. So instead of like semester is

is like three months or whatever, it's it's one class for one month. And then you just kind of

keep going that way. So it's really fast paced. I never get bored. I'm always learning something

new. But it's, I find that because I learned programming on my own, and through online

courses, it's very natural for me to kind of learn this way. Because a lot, it's similar to that kind

of feeling. And a lot of it, I kind of have to figure out myself. You know, they have like the

lectures and stuff, but mostly like, they're like, here's a problem, figure it out. And, you know,

with the tools that they give us or the information, right. So it kind of feels like I'm

just continuing what i've been doing like just um kind of uh poking around and figuring it out

and i think because i come from a non-traditional background it actually helps me in this sense

because i'm used to that and i'm comfortable doing that yeah it's it's nice that there's

you know degrees in data science like i'm not aware of like a master's in django or a master's

in web development for some reason maybe it's because there's less math directly involved but

uh like someone i don't think if someone wanted to like formally learn django you know through

college credits i don't think you can maybe there's a way yeah i mean there should be let's

do it like why don't we but um well i mean part of it is that would definitely like

i mean part of the challenge is that there's no you know tenured faculty to teach it i mean i've

taught college courses and you know unfortunately the reality is for three thousand dollars for a

semester's worth of work it's it doesn't make any sense for a practitioner to do at the moment right

but if anyone's listening and want you know is at a university um there are people who would teach

it they just have to figure out the incentives around around how to do it i mean i know that

my books are used at a number of um universities as part of a larger web development course they

have so a bunch of places will have a semester-long course where it's like a crash course in html css

i think they've already learned python and they they basically sort of work through the beginner's

book, but not even all of it. But that's about as much as I'm aware of in any undergraduate setting

in the US anyways. Yeah, I mean, that would definitely like, bring more community and more

people in and it would help like funding, it would just like kind of grow it all. Because if you have

that many people learning it, then there are many people that can, you know, work in the field and

etc. That would be cool to see. But I mean, goals, right? Yeah, well, and I think but I think having

mentorship and accreditation helps, right? I mean, if you have a master's in data science,

that means something. There's no real equivalent of a credential in Django. I mean, I know you can

get one on LinkedIn or something. But I agree, it would be helpful to have something or other

where you say, I took this course, and as part of the course, I had to do these projects, and I have

a portfolio to show. And, you know, the teacher, whoever they are, says, you know, if you pass the

course there's some certifying you've reached a certain level uh certainly that would be helpful

you know to the community though i guess the the challenge is you know django is more tenuous than

python amino programming or data science right data science can still be a course even if the

tools change whereas django is maybe one degree too too specific um for a formal educational

kind of like i guess it could just be web development i benefit i agree i benefit for

not being not having like a degree because i mean i don't have a degree in in you know computer

science so um they're not being one kind of benefit to me like yeah like because i'm kind

of in the same boat as a lot of people um i feel like and the general community is really welcoming

for that well you're speaking to two people without formal degrees in computer science either

so yeah yeah exactly so rachel you kind of skipped over it quite quickly but i want to come come back

quickly just while i was talking about your machine learning or your data science course

about representation in data sets and things because it seems that every week we see an

example where the you know a machine learning model was trained on you know white men and then

they put it in the real world where it's not just white men and it fails horrendously is that is

that something that they cover in your course about you know representative data sets and being

aware of cognitive biases and biases in your data sets and you know do they train you to avoid that

um i mean yes but there can always be more right um we had an ethics course we discussed that

extensively um and i know there are um we talk about you know where you get your data and how

you do your um studies how you do your training um so i mean we do go over it and it's there but

i don't know that maybe i'm just more aware of it and i'm more um like it other people that maybe

don't have to consider that or think about it they might not think it's as prevalent right because i

i'm i'm kind of like i see it there because that's on my mind right um but yeah there can always be

more um i think a lot of people are just like data data like let's throw it in let's you know

run the models um and yeah i think there has to be a little bit more kind of thought put into

to like this this idea that um you don't notice privilege unless you you know when you are

privileged it's like no it's fine this data set is representative but yeah exactly well i think

we're we're about at 40 minutes are there what are the next steps for people right so you have

a personal site if people want to reach out to you what can what can listeners do to support

jingo girls right since that's maybe the main topic of the show and yes um so right now um we

have two um people that are like paid employees with jangle girls part-time um they're super

helpful anna and claire and they you know help with fundraising and docs and just kind of

organization in general so right now we're at about 45 percent of our monthly needs for finances

so like um reoccurring donations on patron would be good or i know we're setting up github sponsors

that's the thing to do um and if you like amazon and do you use amazon um in the uk you can add

jangle girls as your smile amazon smile organization um or just send money on paypal

at hello at janglegirls.org um so i mean besides money we're always looking for

um help maintaining like the site the tutorial you know people that want to organize workshops

um people that want to you know help out and steer the direction of general girls on the advisory

board those are all things that we are welcoming um help with so there's massive opportunities to

get involved is there yes yeah okay so we're we're happy to get any help so but just on the uh that

that um sort of maintaining the tutorial thing that's a nice you know it's a nice way to get

into open source if you want to because you don't have to give a lot of time you can fix the little

things you can update one section you could you know if you if you happen to um if english isn't

your native language you can get help on that translation and then it'll deepen your knowledge

but deepen your a bit your knowledge of contributing and joining the community and

you know you don't have to give hours and hours to do that yeah exactly it could be a a one-time

thing if you know you don't have to commit to you know maintaining a huge project just if there's

you know maybe a django update you can update the tutorial to match um keep it up to date with that

super and is there just to finish off is there anything else you'd like to call out any other

bits and bobs that you'd like to tell the audience about while you're here i um no i don't think so

um i feel like we've covered you know the important parts okay super well um let me say

thank you for coming on. Awesome chat. Let's wrap it up there. And listeners, we're Django

Chats as ever. Chat Django on Twitter and join us next time. Thanks, Rachel.

Thanks, Rachel.

Great. Thank you.