Transcript: Django Girls - Rachell Calhoun

I'm Carlton Gibson, joined as ever by Will Vincent.

Hello, Will.

Hello, Rachel.

How are you?

How are you doing?

Thank you for coming on.

Rachel, you're um part of um Django Girls, that we're gonna talk a bit about in a bit.

But tell you what, how about you tell us how you got into Django and your backstory and all of that, and we'll we'll begin from there.

Alright, so well, um I well I kind of gotta go a little bit farther back than that.

I was um I studied, you know, foreign languages in college because you know I was told do what you love, and I did the thing that was easy for me.

So um, and I got to travel, that was really fun, Spanish and French.

And then after I graduated, I went to um went to Korea to teach English there, um, as one does with a Spanish and French degree.

And then I uh was

I was

So I tried it out, and during the interview, they like they asked me, you know, do you know what HTML is?

And I was like, um, yeah, you know, something with the web.

I don't know.

Like that's like the level I was starting at.

So I said, I didn't get that job, obviously, but I figured that'd be a good time to start um, you know, learning some programming because I figured it could help me with anything I did.

And um from there, I started, I did a couple days of JavaScript, but then luckily I found a Python group and I kind of that started my Python journey.

I was in Korea at the time in Seoul.

Yes.

Yeah, you you took us around to a Korean barbecue, which is amazing.

Oh yeah, yeah.

This great restaurant.

You knew what all the dishes were, which it turns out it

didn't matter because they were all great, but you uh you would drive in the menu there.

You were there for a little while.

You were there eight

I mean that's because a lot of people, or not a lot of people, but most people go and do a year, two, three max, but eight years is that's a that's a good commitment.

Yes, Will.

Yes.

If you're on this podcast, you're young.

respect, actually.

Um so this was uh so was this in Korean or was this an English-speaking Python group in Seoul?

So though there were three people, uh myself and then um a Pakistani who was working, he's an Android developer and he was living there, and as Korean, who um was a music like pianist, performance major in college, you know, I think she was in her last year, Su Jin.

So um, we just started studying and it was just the three of us.

We did a lot of online courses.

We spoke in English, um, and all the courses were the like you know on Coursera or edX or you know, free platforms, and we kind of like met every Saturday, you know, for a few hours at a coffee shop or at the university, and and yeah, did our courses there.

Okay.

Because Android is traditionally Java.

Oh yeah, and then a pianist has uh I don't know how a pianist chooses a programming language, April, all right?

And then you'd you'd learned a bit of JavaScript.

So how how is it you that you went, ah

And then I I mean I liked them and it was very casual and um it was a nice group of people, and yeah, we did that for like a year, and then I wasn't really like falling in love with it.

I just kind of was it was fun, it was like a hobby because I like to learn as a hobby, and uh um and then Jin from um he's Korean American, he came to Korea in Seoul and he taught us.

We did one day a flask, and I was like, okay, that's fun.

But and then we did Django and I was like, wow, okay, and that kind of really clicked for me, and then from there, um that that was the thing that kind of got me really um to take programming seriously.

So yeah.

Yes, instantly.

But then on um web development, it was cool to see like code I write instantly reflected in the product and and to get that instant response.

So I really like that.

And then from there, um Hassan, he kind of he was always kind of on my shoulder, kind of pushing me to do this, or he's like, Hey, how about you do Django Girls?

Hey, there's this Django Girls thing, hey.

Um, and so I'm glad he did because uh I applied and you know we did it.

Um and we had a hundred

Um so the kind of theory is um my theory back then and kind of still is you learn by doing and master by teaching.

So um, I mean I I I I wasn't an expert.

I had maybe a couple projects of Django done.

Um, but I yeah, I was the organizer and I didn't coach at that event, but I was mainly like um yeah, just the main organizer for it.

So we had like a hundred people participate totally.

Wow.

Total and fantastic.

It was it was really great.

Okay, super.

And then I think I don't know, I think Hassan he sent me another link.

Oh, there's this um scholarship.

What was it?

Django under the hood.

I had no idea.

That was for and um and then I uh went to uh DjangoCon Europe.

I got a scholarship to go there, and that for me kind of circling back to your question of like why Python and why Django?

Um that's kind of what made it.

I was teetering on the edge, like, should I go JavaScript more front end and do like full stack?

Should I dive into Django?

And I went to Django Con, I think it was uh Budapest that year, and I just love the people right from the beginning, the community.

It was really great for me.

Um and so I was like, yep, these are my people, this is what I want to do.

Yeah.

Um after DjangoCon Europe, I um I was kind of encouraged and pushed to apply for a talk at DjangoCon US and I got a talk accepted on Git and you know, intro to version control.

And um then, you know, like I kind of started really taking it seriously and I was like, wow, I could do this.

So um yeah, I applied a bunch of jobs.

I got my first programming job here in Michigan in Grand Rapids.

Um, I moved here for the job, and then on my first day, they uh gave me a code of ethics and they asked me to like uh to sign it, saying that I believe a marriage is only between a man and a woman, and uh I'm married to a woman, so I could not sign this.

Yes.

Yeah, and um

it was really difficult.

Um I reached out to the Daniel community, um Django Girls, Ola, and Ola, and then they kind of connected me with Jeff Triplet, and he kind of you know connected me with some job opportunities.

And from then I had been, you know, I started working remote from then on my own um LLC and I haven't looked back, I love it.

Um currently my I'm working with a medical device company and uh Django backend, and then also uh contact tracing because because COVID, so that's interesting um to do some like really meaningful work.

But that uh okay.

I don't know what I've got to say about it.

And so like I'm extremely grateful for um the people and in and kind of that family familiar, you know, sense community.

No.

Um so I mean I've always been involved with Django Girls since I um started programming basically in in Korea.

And when I came to Michigan, um we started a local branch here as well, both Django Girls and Pie Ladies.

And um I was also the translation kind of co-management um for the tutorial uh for Django Girls.

So I was involved with that as well, and then um part of the support kind of team.

Um and yeah, that's kind of up leading up to now.

And now recently, I'm sure you know the news that um Ola, Syndic and Satarsky had stepped down, so they asked us, a few of us, five of us, to to step up to be the new trustees for the Jail Girls Foundation.

The the the because Ola and Ola done did so much to begin, and but then obviously, you know, life takes over and you can't keep that going forever.

So to be able to hand on the baton that's kind of the that's kind of the moment where it becomes a sustainable thing in itself.

So um I'm just I mean I'm really grateful that I have the opportunity to um do the same thing maybe for you know future programmers people that are just stepping in now trying it out themselves.

So it's really important to have that um a bigger group of people and more diverse.

So right now that's kind of our focus and also we've been focusing a lot on remote workshops um and getting those up and getting our our um tutorials and uh organizing manuals up for people that want to run those and and you know best practices because um currently you know everything's kind of remote so yeah

om call or whatever you

I mean either way you look at it there's uh disadvantages and advantages there so I mean we're doing what we can with with our situation now yeah

So um I I think it's now 18 different languages the tutorial and you know with every update that needs to be translated as well.

So it it's quite a a big project to keep and maintain.

So um we are always looking for people that want to help out um with both the tutorial and the translations.

But yeah.

And one thing I always thought was well you know maybe that there's an on-ramp from Django girls but the Django girls tutorial is very much um a beginner's tutorial um and it's too much to expect someone who's just completed the Django girls tutorial to then go on and be contributing to open source directly but do you think there's something we can do there and I mean what if I just said to you well come on what what's the problem why can't we get more um non-male contributors what would what would you say what what what thoughts do you have or do you have any?

And then they kind of go back and they start actually learning it and I would love to first of all get some intermediate like intermediate material for Django girls so you have a blog post what's next and we have some resources um after the tutorial for follow-up material but I would love something more official that would be really cool but um I mean that's a big project in itself and then um the next thing would be is if we could partner somehow um with you know um some comp

anies organizations that um maybe do mentorship or um like a one-on-one um screen share I know that you know there's uh privacy and and and things but that would be really cool to see like what programming looks like especially as a beginner in the real world and um that would that's kind of like my idea and it costs you know one hour of time for someone that's working um and to answer questions or just to see or or maybe like work through

a project together.

Like so I had a a scholarship through Toptal and they um hooked me up they set me up with a one-on-one every week for a year with a developer senior developer and we did projects together and he helped me work through it and that was really valuable for me to see kind of how someone else worked but also get that instant feedback because I was a remote worker I didn't really have um as much contact with other developers um when I was just starting out so something like that um would help um in the Django space specifically I mean people that are already in the jail

community they could kind of um you know uh take someone that's that's more green and and and less experienced and kind of um support them and and and and help them kind of get started and and be like their mentor or sponsor um and I think that would help just to kind of break through the barrier um when people first start you know contributing it can be quite intimidating um and like where do we start what do we do but I think once you get that first um contribution or that

first kind of once you break through it it it'll be a lot easier and then they can go by themselves.

So I think something like that would be helpful.

I mean it's from the other side it's like oh you know this is just what you do you you know find a ticket open a PR yeah it looks so so easy but it's not right

I think that's really can be helpful.

I did that recently with a friend of mine with something she was working on and um she's like wow I couldn't have done this without you and I said yes you could have it just would have taken you um a lot longer and probably would have been more frustrating and maybe you know like

but yeah

And I think knowing that that someone's there for that would be helpful.

Yeah.

But figuring out a way to oh geez.

Well basically um yeah essentially that's what I did.

Yeah they could figure it out but if I can give it to someone in thirty minutes instead of ten hours and they know that it's correct, you know, that has value.

But in terms of the the mentorship, you know, it does seem like it needs to have some sort of external structure, right?

Like 'cause we could probably think of a couple dozen Django developers who, if we said, hey, here's this program, there's going to be some recognition, maybe there's even a little bit of money, and you do an hour a week with someone, they would do it.

But to do it on your own and not have that machinery is really too much when someone's you know donating their time or doing it at a discount.

So I hope that that's you know something Django Girls can do.

I mean, it'd be great if Django itself could do that, though.

I'm sure we the board can, you know, help with funding.

Um but sorting out, you know, in the same way that I mean uh Carlton Mentors uh is one of the lead mentors for Google Summer of Code.

If there was some sort of 10 people a year, Django fellowship matched one-on-one, it was an hour a week.

You know, but again, it's we need people to do it.

But I think if you know what happens is then people who uh otherwise wouldn't have stuck with programming do get into programming and then like you, right?

Like you're now lead you know one of the leaders of Django Girls because you had that help, and so you want to pay it forward, so you're all that much more involved in the community because the community was able to to help initially.

Um so just brainstorming how to how to keep doing the kind of things that you all want to do.

Like, and that I was like, Oh, okay, you don't know everything, okay, so it's okay if I don't know everything.

And and it was really important for me to see that.

So, like those kind of things that just come out when you're um working with other people and seeing how they work, I think are are important.

But yeah, like you said, like um, I mean it's possible to do it, just I think logistically, um it would it would take uh a lot of planning and kind of setup, but if we get it out there, I think it could be um useful.

I mean, I often think, well, what if there were five, you know, start with Django projects?

And they're all some variation of CRUD, of course.

Um, but if there's a common language that people can talk to, right?

So that that makes it a lot easier, even for a mentor, to say, oh, I I kind of know what this is.

Whereas when you're dropped in, I mean, if we asked five people to do a Django blog, they could all do it a little bit differently, um, which would be confusing for beginners, you know, be interesting for more advanced people.

Um but if there was, you know, yeah, a couple like a stepping stone.

I mean, uh in my books I sort of do that actually.

Um, but of course that's different than Django Girls.

But I guess I'm just rambling today, so I apologize.

But I'm just trying to think of it's nice to have I think of that well.

Then I have to listen to it when I edit this podcast.

Um but one of I'm curious

maybe for you, Rachel,

Because you can say to someone, hey, you just finished the Django Girls tutorial.

You know how to build almost every website out there, but people don't know that until they've said, Oh, well, a blog is the same as a to-do list is the same as, you know, a Facebook clone is the same as um, do you have any thoughts or experience with helping people make that leap?

I think you realize that because what happens is um if you make the tutorial, or I mean you make the blog with Django Girls tutorial, um, and then you're you want to make a to-do list, you're like, okay, well, what if I just rename this, you know, blog post uh task or something?

Um, and it kind of grows from there and you start realizing that you can shape it and and edit it and and and kind of use that as your base for reference.

And so you that's I mean, for my me personally, so no one had to tell me that I didn't have to, it just kind of naturally happened um because that's all I knew, so that's what I was going off of, and I just tweaked it and I made like five different versions of Django Girls blog um with different, you know, as different websites and different um uh purposes, yeah.

Yeah, because I I mean personally I don't I didn't make that leap when I was starting out with CRUD.

I mean, I heard people say it, but it just didn't register until I tried to build a couple other sites, and then I was like, oh, okay.

It was like the fourth or fifth CRUD site where it sort of clicked.

Um so I'm very a aware, at least my own experience, that that leap can take a while for folks to make.

Um, because um it's through the process of doing it, it that's how I learn.

Um but you put a book in front of me, it kind of, you know, I'd rather just dive in and break things and then figure out why it's broken and then fix it, obviously, with projects, not with work.

But um, you know, um and um the other point was that you were talking about universities and stuff.

I know that um so I'm a data science uh I'm getting a a a degree in um data science at University of Michigan uh master's degree, and one of my professors is Charles Severance.

He does he does uh Python for every everybody, I think.

And that's like one of the first Python courses I did on to Coursera, yeah.

And he also now has a Django specialization.

I haven't done it, but um I have a friend who has, and um, I mean I that's again like one more you know resource that someone could follow up with after the Django Girls tutorial.

Um and I think that's you know, like there there are more resources, but yeah, like having a community and having someone that you can get instant responses um from would be, I guess, key.

Like you said, have something uh set up.

Because it's not just these days it you don't have to be a professional programmer to program.

But um do you do any kind of follow-up, any surveys, anything like that to track the results?

The we did a follow-up survey, um, I guess a year or two ago.

And at that time, I think it was of the respondents, we don't know, you know what I mean, everybody didn't respond, but like 20% or something ended up with using doing something in tech.

Um, and another one, you know, went did a boot camp um and and does like you know front end or whatever.

So it's really interesting to see them just kind of get that spark of like, yeah, I could do this, and then you know, they go and do the other thing.

So I don't we don't have like solid numbers and it's impossible really to, you know, to track you know all those people down.

But um I mean a good percent and I think I mean if you use it or not, if if that's your calling or not, um

So the the 20% to go into tech, that's that seems like quite a good high, like a high number, a good result.

And then there'll be another equal amount probably who use it somehow, you know, that they're at work doing some other job and they go, Oh, I know a little bit of Python, and they're able to automate something or other that otherwise they wouldn't have been able to.

Or maybe talk with developers that they work with or you know, understand, or maybe make their own blog or website, you know, um, for personal things, uh personal projects and stuff.

Yeah, there's like I mean, so there's not, you know, success isn't that someone becomes a developer.

It's that, you know, they feel good walking away and they think that, hey, you know, I can do this and it's fun.

Um that's kind of the goal of the workshop.

Ah I'm like, yes, yes, yes, that was success.

Because whether they use it or not, beyond that, it's like, yes, you've seen it, you've got it, you've

You know, yeah.

And like there's also those, you know, there's a bug moments where they hate it and they can't, you know.

But that's like that's you know, development.

So um, but it I like a lot.

And and that kind of has um

Yeah, exactly.

Um and it it so yeah, I mean that too.

So it help people.

Because I think for for maybe a lot of people in the web realm, that's sort of very interesting, but uh maybe not fully explored.

Like I'm curious what have been kind of aha moments there and you know that intersection is really probably the future of a lot of tech, right?

Data science combined with with web.

Um so I'm just curious what what that's been like studying data science coming from Django.

Um, so I kind of got interested in it because I work with the medical device company, and um, one of the things going forward is potentially like um using big data to, you know, um for for patient information or whatever.

And I was like, wow, yeah, that makes sense.

And then I was, you know, just the more I kind of thought about it, the more kind of powerful um it seems um and and what you can do with data and the people that control uh control and manipulate data, like who are they?

And speaking of like, you know, women in tech and minorities in tech, like you know, who yeah yeah so and then and people tell stories with that data.

So like it's important to me that everyone's stories are told and everyone's represented in those.

Not just stories but in healthcare you know you don't want to leave people out and you know that could have really um damaging uh consequences.

So that's kind of my kind of inspiration to get into it.

But um yeah going into it it's it's weird.

It's different than I thought.

So I don't have a huge math background which is challenging now because um we're doing quite a bit or research background and so I'm learning a lot and it's definitely it's a challenge but I'm enjoying it.

But yeah and

and it

That's kind of my kind of my idea.

But it's interesting to see I'm not really sure I haven't gotten to the point to actually merge the two yet because I'm still I'm like halfway through the program or maybe a third through and we're kind of just doing intro stuff and you know I'm getting my feet wet there.

But I'm really interested to see I think that'll be really powerful to you know use what I learned from there and kind of merge it with you know the web and and and the tools that we we develop.

So you've got your kind of data science tools which you're using and then it's really easy to put those into an API which then you can then I don't know consume however or put in a uh a visualization on the web or using the tools that you already know.

But um I'm uh yeah I'm interested to see like bigger scale how how things can be um used go ahead boy

So instead of like semester is is like three months or whatever it's it's one class for one month and the it and you just kind of keep going that way.

So it's really fast paced.

I never get bored I'm always learning something new but it's I find that because I learn programming on my own and uh through online courses it it's very natural for me to kind of learn this way um because a lot it's it's similar to that kind of feeling and a lot of it I kind of have to figure out myself.

You know they have like the lectures and stuff but mostly like they're like here's a problem figure it out and you know with the tools that they give us or the information right so um it kind of feels like I'm just continuing what I've been doing like just um kind of uh poking around and figuring it out and I think because I come from a non-traditional background it actually helps me in this sense um because I'm used to that and I'm comfortable doing that.

Maybe there's a way.

I mean I I've taught college courses and you know unfortunately the reality is for three thousand dollars for a semester's worth of work it's it doesn't make any sense for a practitioner to do at the moment.

I mean I know that my books are used at a number of um universities as part of a larger web development course they have so a bunch of places will have a semester long course where it's like a crash course in HTML, CSS.

I think they've already learned Python and they they basically sort of work through the beginner's book um but not even all of it.

But that's about as much as I'm aware of uh in any sort of undergraduate setting in the US anyways.

But I mean goals right yeah

I mean I know you can get one on LinkedIn or something but um I yeah I agree it would be helpful to to have something or other where you say I took this course and as part of the course I had to do these projects and I have a portfolio to show and you know the teacher whoever they are says you know if you pass the course there's some certifying you've reached a certain level uh certainly that would be helpful you know to the community.

Though I guess the the challenge is you know Django is more tenuous than Python I mean programming or data science, right?

Data science can still be a course even if the tools change whereas Django is maybe one degree too too specific um for a formal

and I mean I I kind of like I'd say

I benefit for not being not having like a degree because I mean it I don't have a degree in in you know computer science so um there not being one kind of benefit to be like yeah like because I'm kind of in the same boat as a lot of people um I feel like and the jungle community is really welcoming for that.

Is that is that something that they cover in your course about you know represent representative data sets and being aware of cognitive biases and biases in your data sets and you know do they train you to avoid that?

it's as prevalent right because I I I'm I'm kind of like I see it there because that's on my mind right um but yeah there can always be more

um I think a

in general so right now we're at about 45% of our monthly um needs for finances so like um recurring donations on Patron would be good or um I know we're setting up GitHub sponsors that's the thing to do um and if

you like

jangle girls.org um so I mean besides money we're always looking for um help maintaining like the site, the tutorial, you know, people that want to organize workshops, um, people that want to, you know, help out and steer the direction of Django Girls on the advisory board.

Those are all things that we are welcoming um help with.

Yeah.

Okay, super.

You can fix the little things, you can update one section, you can, you know, if you if you happen to um if English isn't your native language, you can get help on that translation, and then it'll deepen your knowledge, but deepen your a bit your knowledge of contributing and joining a community, and you know, you don't have to give hours and hours to do that.

It could be a a one-time thing if you know you don't have to commit to you know maintaining a huge project.

Just if there's you know, maybe a Django update, you can update the tutorial to match, um, keep it up to date with that.

And is there just to finish off, is there anything else you'd like to call out?

Any other bits and bobs that you'd like to tell the audience about while you're here?

Um I feel like we've covered, you know, the important parts.

Okay, super.

Awesome chat.

And um listeners with with Django Chat as ever, um chat Django on Twitter and join us next time.

Thanks, Rachel.

Thanks, Rachel.