Transcript: DjangoCon Europe 2025 Recap

hi welcome to another episode of django chat i'm will vincent joined by carlton gibson

hey carlton hello will how are you i'm marvelous marvelous good we are back from here i love it

yeah no no r is allowed yep we are both back from django con europe in dublin so we're recording

this to share our thoughts share our emotions while it's still in our head because i've actually

i come i have like a sprint of things i want to do this week because i always come out of

conferences with lots of ideas and people to contact but if i don't grab the bull by the

horns right away then the rest of the waves of work hit me so i'm still you know following up

with people writing things down and then this hopefully is a good chance to save for posterity

some of the takeaways from a really good week

almost

you

yeah no it was amazing as me i'm still slightly uh horse in the throat from the uh the last party

night where it was at a quite a noisy um noisy venue and so you had to speak up and obviously

yeah there were bouncers it was really it was a whole it was a whole thing it was full of young

people which was very strange but all good anyway well you you because you were it was in ireland so

django um europe was in dublin this year but you were there for some time before no

we were acclimatized yeah so i was so jetbrains sponsored me to go over because i was giving a

keynote which i'll mention but uh the week before was school vacation week so i was able to go with

my family um so my wife three young kids and this is our first trip overseas so it all yeah it all

was great it was a little tiring of course but yeah obviously we toured around mainly the southwest

coast of the country so we saw the cliffs of moore we were in killarney um went to the aaron

islands uh you know we did all the things and then dropped them off at the airport hotel and

in the midst of a thunderstorm as often happens picked you up from the uh terminal and we we took

a cab down to the venue yeah that was good that was good it was very nice to come out because i

was quite it was quite late now it's like how am i going to get there how am i going to get there

and then wheels they're waiting to escort me to the right direction yeah you do a better job than

i do of um not delegating things but um

i have a tendency to be all or nothing with things in group situations so there's no point

multiple people being at the wheel right so if you're in charge then you're in charge and i'll

just ride behind if i need to be in charge it can be but i'd rather someone else do it yes um so then

the flip side was so it was a it was a bit late and tiring getting in um so i stayed at a hotel

where the conference was happening and you you and um marish were a little bit ways away but

that first day started off and uh i actually that this is a point i want to make so we talk about how

um kojo has this idea of self-care sprints and i needed one that first night so even though there's

a party the first night i just had dinner by myself walked down to the water had you know

had the first chance to be alone for over a week and i so needed it so like even multiple people

the next day were like oh you seem a little more yourself you know day two you did certainly turn

up um you did turn up yeah much yeah yeah i just you know um what's kojo's line yeah kojo's line

is that the self-care sprints are the sprints that let the other friends happen yes yeah exactly

and and i think also this is not my first jango con europe events my second or certainly not my

first jango con us and yeah it is a sprint like i i think that's a point i've made before but

it's worth repeating that the first time i went to a conference well i met you but i was

and i sat through talks all day long and that's great like you should go to the talks you should

go to most of the talks i went to most of the talks but it's also about the hallway track it's

also about getting outside the venue from every now and then and we're going to mention a couple

of the more interesting um interactions we had was you know like the second day you just given

your talk and we went to have a drink to celebrate and then you know met people who are also doing

the same and then saw them at the same time and then i was like oh my god i'm gonna go to the

speaker's dinner later so there's a there's a mix of the technical and the talks and then also

just socializing with people who are doing things and contributing to jango yeah i mean

the talks aren't the same when you watch them on the video right if you watch the talk live you're

involved you see the speaker you interact with the speaker there's the question the q a's

afterwards it it there is it they are much more vibrant but you can watch the speak the talks on

youtube later on so so with that second afternoon i'd give them

my talk i was i was exhausted i was like no okay it was a lot of work to write um stupid me i gave

a community talk i was you know i was sitting there a million times harder than the technical

talk so i must have been that's the thing this yeah i must have been writing it like for thinking

about it before like four months it must have taken me literally a week an entire week to

write like you know you add up all the hours and so the talk's gone over it's gone over quite well

it's like then release i just need to decompress after that so

i can't you know i sat through karen's talk afterwards which was very good actually on

debugging and production um karen tracy who's always just knocks it out of the park um yep

but i couldn't carry on that afternoon i need i need to do i need to just chat to people i need

to relax i need to just you know be in a slightly different space so the hallway check is perfect

then you have serendipitous conversations and part of the reason to turn up is the conversations

right it's it's the meeting the people whether the old people that you've met before or the new

people that you you meet that first time it's like that the

deeper um that deepening that reaction sometimes you off you've seen work with them online like

jacob wells who's um could be a contributor now in django he's on the triage and review team i think

but he's a regular contributor i've never met him and so to actually you know it's all you um you

know and several people like that so anyway yes the hallway track yeah and i think also the it's

really the second or third time you're at a conference when it hits its peak of you know

first time you you meet people for the first time you you you have the getting to know them talks

which is great but you know once you know them you're already following them following them

online the next year when you see them you can just jump right into like oh like carlton i saw

you've been working on paths and like let's talk about it right or or whatever it is right there's

there's less of the getting to know people stuff but there's still also i think especially at

django con europe there's a lot of people who it's their first django con you know like there is a

um a lot of people who it's their first django con you know like there is a um a lot of people who

a woman i met who's using django and python and doing stuff with like mirrors for the european

space agency and like all this you know interesting stuff you know doing data science and web

like there's such an interesting mix of you know the regulars new people um yeah it's great there's

you know if you can possibly attend i highly recommend it and even as there's a little bit

of you know jet lag and and definitely cost to be fair um something good always comes out of it

this podcast came out of it you know so i mean it's hard work right because you have to travel

there however so wherever you've come from you've had to travel there so that's a day

you know or at the least you know it's a full day that it's going to take you to get there

and then it's probably quite a late evening because you'll go to the social and you'll

stay up a bit late in your hand it's an early start and then well okay day one fine day two

day three and then by the time you reach the sprint you're like okay i'm really

wringing it dry now well and that's the thing the sprints are if you can stay from the sprint

are the best part because then you you have the it's smaller groups it's less intense it's

but you still you know can go get dinner have chats and and work on django whatever it is you

want to work on but you know you weren't able to really you just attended the morning um i wasn't

really able to stay for the first day i mean i let me i left mid-afternoon on the on the first

day and but that's true that's i'm sorry you you stayed longer well but i would i would would have

stayed for the two days but with the travel with the kids at home and all the rest it doesn't work

but that you know

if you could stay to to the end then you do get the kind of extra couple of evenings which are

much quieter much you know and you get to have much deeper conversations and then at the sprints

that's when you'll chat you know there'll be really

contributor really established contributors there and you get to have really in-depth

conversations about really specific things and it'll be like you know we've had florin on the

show so i asked florin florin can you review this pr you know is this going to be the one you know

and he he can then give his opinion and that and it just helps to set the you know i've just picked

florin out there because i had that one particular but you know lots of contributors and it just

helps to set the agenda for going forward you know we've got a short list of possibles and then by

having those more those deeper conversations you can really narrow it down and and get more focus

and so i never get anything done at the sprints always turn up i've got these grand ideas i'm

gonna look at these prs i managed to get my bus bus ticket booked that's about all but i had the

conversations yeah well it plants the seed for everything else and i think there's this nice

rhythm to you know go to conferences and you see everyone and have to speak loudly at whatever

parties and then we all go back to our

perspective caves and you know it's in a more measured pace but but still with that enthusiasm

around not just django but whatever we're working on or new ideas i mean i have so many new you know

so i gave a talk on django for data science that not just a talk you have a keynote keynote oh yeah

excuse me a keynote yes thank you um yeah so i learned a lot doing that talk and then people

came up to me like because i want to do the next version already um so that spurred so many

interesting conversations which you know in the moment i can't do anything with but i'm going to

have all these long lists of like you know packages and ways people are doing things um

as well as you know so again jetbrain sponsored me to go which i'm very grateful for we launched

we jetbrains launched while i was on vacation the week before this huge new ai push for us so

an integrated ai chat assistant and our own agent juni and it was great that i was on vacation when

all that happened so like i actually got a little bit of a break you know when it's not

just me doing everything as it has been the last few years it's nice to be part of a team but it's

also i got to have so many conversations with people just about you know about pie charm i

mean unsurprisingly there's a lot of users around pie charm just being like you know tell me what

you tell me what you think or or whatever they're using right or like oh like why do you like this

ide text editor you know and that's stuff that i then can take you know so i then talk to our

product teams and share and i think you know one of the interesting things is

most people are so we working on the product we see and share you know when someone says

something horrific on reddit or on pick a social you know and it it can internally working on a

product it can feel like people hate it but the reality is like the only people who take the time

to post things on socials generally are at one extreme or another and they're usually on the

negative stream and so the fact that i was able to have and share with our product team quite a

to me just uninvited and said yeah like i'm really i'm really liking pie charm or like i've been

doing the early access program for the agent and it's really working well for me um and then i was

like oh well tell me more because you know i've i've been pushing the limits and i'm trying to

understand you know how i can showcase what it can and can't do you know that that's the real world

right is that people you know somewhere in between but people are a lot more positive than again what

we see so it's very helpful that i can bring that back to our internal group and the negative

griping like those who are on social media and they're like oh my god i'm not going to do that

all the more kind to be negative and criticize and you know my talk had a very similar point to

make about the django community and the visible django community is probably best estimates about

0.1 percent total user base and so when we here have these blog posts of criticizing our djangos

these are early adopters who are desperate to push forward and that we're not taking into account

when we when you know those yeah those are legitimate criticisms yeah there's things that

we need to do yeah there are challenges we face but the reality is that django is doing a lot more

of a great job for the 99.9 percent who never boast and never say oh no i really need you know

if we don't integrate we react within the next cycle django's dead no it's not yeah well and i

often think there's two things with when someone says something really negative i appreciate the

fact that they are they're almost always talking about something there's something there right so

and they and and it's it it plants the seed or it starts a conversation around how to improve it

but then you sort of have to ignore the tone because somebody who's really

you know they care about it right yeah so that's the kind of person who if you can solve it for

them they'll be all the more you know they want you to solve it that's why they're doing it right

so like you know you can feel a little bit like ugh like when you have a bunch of issues or you

put a lot into it but it i don't know if it comes from a good place but it's it's a positive thing

you just have to separate the emotion that you feel as a human being in the moment from no this

is there's something there to investigate and decide how it fits with the priorities of the

internally yeah no absolutely absolutely they've they've hit on something but it's their reactive

negative brain which is um firing it and it's like okay like take try and take the kernel of

truth from the thing they've identified without engaging with the reactivity and that's the you

know that's the challenge isn't it yeah and i it was also good to see that uh so mongo db had a

i think they're the only one who had a table there but got the chance to talk with the the team there

developer advocate she gave a talk but also she mentioned her talk this was this is kind of nice

to see like i was messaging you during it that uh the jenga developer survey which is one of the

things i worked on on the board had questions around databases and i think she cited that

eight percent of people said that they used mongo which seems quite high but you know so out of

however many thousands of responses if you extrapolate that out to the larger millions

of users mongo internally was able to help use that to justify

this new push for this official back end and we had a interview with jib about it but

you know these small things it's it's gratifying right to see small things and effort just to

support jango or whatever it is you know years later you know they don't lead themselves but

they help help these things come about right so there's always there's always something positive

there and you know and then sometimes you know i i had a thought i would love to do one of these

soft talks are hard and hard talks are soft so like these non-technical talks to your point like

it's much easier to give a technical talk but i love the soft talks i especially like your ones

i would love to do something around not avoiding the jango meat grinder but the

like the the valleys and and mountaintops of it right where you know sometimes you're super

involved and then you're less involved you don't have to go away if you need to you can yeah right

and like you know both of us but especially you you've done that where you had a year post fellow

steering council and you know that just to understand that there's a life cycle to it and

it's not just you like it's normal like it's normal like this week right i'm just like it's

normal for me to feel tired and jet lagged and it's not that i feel that way about whatever it

is i'm doing this week it's just like no i just had an intense two three weeks and yeah it's a

tag really how i feel it's got to be a tag team not a battle royale right you can't be in there

the whole time you've got to tag out right take your downtime come back in later i even now so

with the steering council we've had a busy beginning um we're coming to the point where

we our initial goals of uh we're kind of those plans are filling out and okay so then it'll be

it should be that as a steering council we can step back slightly and just help steer the technical

direction of jango rather than having to work on the contributing process and ecosystem page and

those things should fall into place over the next you know little while and then it should be a bit

to just back away because the steering council doesn't need to be in there every week working

really hard because that's not sustainable over you know the two and a half year cycle right and

you have you have been with this new you know the new group and yeah we've been meeting every week

and we've been we've been really you know working hard and like my as i say my talk was a big

commitment and so part of me is very much now looking forward to just step back hiding back in

my cave just a team i'm not going i'm still in the steering house i still got work to do but

i'm going to step back into my cave just

a teeny bit and work on async over the summer you know i just yeah well and i i think probably for

you there is there's already been a recap someone wrote um about jango con europe and i'm sure

there'll be more you know people seeing neapolitan for the first time right yeah that's just that

point that got mentioned other people's talks well because yeah so there's a degree of people

who just haven't seen it most people haven't seen it and or people who've seen it now maybe they're

finally you know using it and you know you know it's spreading well let's say i stand up whatever

hey i've done this thing called neapolitan and then someone might go home they might try it it

might take them ages to work into the work project right it's not gonna you can't just rewrite your

project in right as opposed to like multiple people saying oh this is a package that you

know trusted members working on and this is how i'm using it uh to help to help my work i mean

that was the thing there's you know the talks run them

run the gambit of of things i really liked i really like the talks of we're using jango to

solve this problem at work and they were they're quite a there were a couple of those you know tim

tim bell gave one crack in about um database migrations um well migrating foreign key fields

or primary key fields from um yeah at scale without downtime it was a great talk one of my favorites

yeah yeah yeah and then um there were three days i gave a talk on

cool gave a talk and and you know and this is a this is a point to make too that

you know when we go to the conferences because of this podcast you know some people come up to us

but like we're fanboys too like i'd you know i guess he he's been out there a while but i

i i didn't know what he looked like i'd never heard him speak like i've been reading his stuff

for forever i remember being like oh like who's this like you know legend coming out of the

the woodwork and you know and then see his talk and then we saw we saw him at the social and you

know the person and yeah it's it's great it fills in the the whole picture of people in the

community i guess no i was really when i you know saw myself always okay i've been reading this blog

for a decade yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh and i i did want to shout out to the first night thing

that was technically a jingo social event that boxley talent so john gould and and liam um they

threw that on so i don't think that was officially through the conference but

it was a good thing officially there wasn't anything that night and so they organized a

jango social it was just like and all it really is is we're going to be here come here but it's

an opportunity to say especially in a city the size of dublin where it's it's not likely that

you would bump into other conference attendees by accident unless you were very near the venue or

something like that but in the center of dublin you're not going to meet conference attendees by

accident so to just say we're going to be in a place it gives people a place to head to and then

i had some really great conversations again it was a little bit noisy for my old ears

well what else what other what other talks jumped out at you because you got to go to a couple more

than me because i was speaking in the last day so it's sort of i had to skip a couple to work on my

slides yeah the trouble with whenever your talk is you can't you can't really sit back and enjoy

the conference until your talk is over so ideally you want the first talk it's it's the most stress

yeah you want to be it's out of the way sarah boyce just like yeah i'm not going to be able to talk to you

first one and then you're done yeah so i was second day mid-morning so by lunchtime second

day i was like okay it's done but you weren't till the third day yeah so um the two we've got

three my three favorite orm talks there were three orm talks that were really good um tim's that

you've mentioned hackies that you mentioned then karen jacks who's um from crunchy data who

keynoted last year in vigo she gave another just amazing talk about in the internals of a postgres

operation so when you do a select or an insert or whatever what actually happens

and it was just so perfectly pitched because obviously it's really really really complex

and i was she explained it really really well and i was going through and it got to that point where

the database is fetching pages of data from the disk and i was just starting to phase out i was

a bit like no i'm getting lost and then and then that was the most that was like the high water

mark for complexity and i was like oh phew he's coming but it was just perfectly pitched it was

really good talk so i love that one what else agnes has to give a talk on multi-factor auth

which i thought was really well done um you know i i much more into um understand the passkey

signing algorithm now because she used different sunglasses sunglasses and um and i was like okay

these are the different roles in the algorithm graham nap did one on feature flags and i thought

and there were like just loads these were the ones that kind of stood out to me but then again

every day the lightning talks were just there was some absolutely genius oh the lightning talk

lightning talks were so good i mean and danielle he gave an amazing like if you're going to be like

you know hall of fame lightning talk um yeah and like you know someone i forget which i'm sorry

which person did it but they had a point about you know why give a lightning talk is it maybe

it was the one where they used ai but they were saying you know it's short enough you don't you

don't have to take questions but also like you have to get to the point right away yeah which

is sort of a developer mindset sort of thing so just long enough to show some expertise but not

long enough to you know for your bluff to be i have to handle questions yeah yeah

let me think highlights i i'll just call out a couple um so jacob brief had the end-to-end

testing with pi tests and playwright yes that was really he did a really good job with it and also

i have really not used playwright much myself so i'm gonna re-watch that um and he i thought he

made a lot of good points too about you know pi tests versus django tests and um i think i'm like

you i still am fine using django tests but i understand that if i was a django tester i would

work on a larger code base like there's a ton of reasons why pi test is i think the dominant

pattern um so he gave some context on that and i thought that was really interesting and then of

course um adam johnson had his data-oriented django dre that's german for three sorry i say

that wrong third edition so he did one in porto one in vigo and he's done one part part and yeah

i don't know what language the next one will be but yeah so many i mean so many good ones and

also there was um i guess the first day there was the django software foundation had a board q a

yes so that was good so there was so they both the main hall for talks but there's also a separate

one for workshops and so this was in a workshop and um yeah i'm really excited what the board's

doing and that there's new people and you know executive director maybe kind of sorta they're

doing things around django 20th the django blog is more and more popular and i think it's going to

more people are writing like it just seems like there's a lot of good energy in that direction

and there were three board members or three or four there was tebow there was four right so tebow

tom and tom carrick and sarah and sarah a were there and then palo i think wasn't speaking but

he was in the room so yeah four of the seven um in one room so they didn't pass any you know

stealth um changes to the dsf bylaws while they had a quorum without anyone

i don't think so but if you want to if you want to get something into django come show up oh and i

did want to call out um mia's uh keynote then second day so the most bizarre software bugs in

history this was a great talk and it was such a like spectrum of what a keynote could be because

it was very much i would say like a tedx like i don't think there was any code actually shown but

it was all about code and about you know software bugs over history and communication and just set

a really good engaging conversation and i think it was a great talk and it was such a great talk

you know beautiful slides template for what a keynote could be and and then there was mine

which is sort of in between where it was like a mix of technical i did talk through some slides

but then also trying to do context and you had several people but you especially had some really

good uh ideas around ways i can show more of the data science going forward which i think would be

really helpful to people to understand like what does it mean to train a model because there's

there's all these there's there's a number of off-the-shelf

ways to do it that are not

that hard, but give a sense

of the patterns and i talked a little bit about how you know why would you choose one data set

over another you know because like so we used iris which there's no fitting problems but titanic has

like just enough fitting problems so i could already see a second talk or videos on all this

i think particularly for a web audience that you just like you showed training the model with

scikit-learn and scikit-learn is doing an awful lot it gave you it gave you the algorithm you

showed training it but i not to criticize at all but i think there was a good space there that

could have been like look scikit-learn gives you all of these algorithms and you like the trick is

not that you have to know the maths you have to kind of understand which ones are appropriate

when and there's probably half a dozen that are genuinely useful or you the bulk standard cases

and maybe even maybe even less that yeah i mean i think it's interesting to know these are like i

mentioned like training and testing where you split things up and how you know 80 20 so like

that's what we use that's a default

you

but you know you could do 90 10 or 70 30 depending on how you know loose or strict you want to be

and there's pros and cons there like i do think there's something helpful to being a little

hand wavy but just super contexty right because the details are fun and we all get lost in them

but like what are the foundational things of of training a model or even making the point that

machine what is machine learning versus data science and machine learning is when you give

it the inputs you give it the answer and the psychic learn psychic learn the computer figures

out its own logic for it you know that's what makes it machine learning you could also just

decipher things and do fine patterns yourself so that was part of the talk too is that data science

is just a umbrella term for a whole bunch of disciplines so it's ml is one thing lms or

another lms data science or they will be when when the hype goes down yeah and what's ai yeah

i mean it's and i shared you know i had a version of the talk where i was going to do more about lms

in particular because um there's so you know many people are using them every day i mean i'm using

one every day and yet you know vibe coding i i can't help but be offended by the term um and i

think it was helpful you know talking to other professional developers like there's clearly

something there but only somebody who's deeply ignorant would say it's going to replace programmers

in the same way that somebody who says ai is going to replace doctors has never sat in a doctor's

office and tried to have a patient explain what the program is and what the program is and what

the problem is because guess what they often can't even come close to explaining what the problem is

and it's like if you've ever sat in a meeting like even if you said oh you have this perfect ai that

can write the perfect django code you can't get people to agree on what they want even if they

could do the code you know like that's that's what the real world is like so it's so there's

something there and it's really interesting and there's um it's changing but yeah just a side rant

i'm vibe coding

but i don't know but it just pushes the debugging problem later on which is more work for django

consultancies i guess but yeah and you're meant to push it to the left you're meant to push the

debugging earlier so do you know anyway i have nothing really to add here we've said this we've

said this loads of times they're clearly useful but i don't yet feel for my job security no no

um what else this isn't this wasn't meant to be a super long episode and it might just be a really

short one um i mean what can i say

the other thing was um you know because the conference because in dublin the conference

was slightly out of town we were staying in town we ended up getting the bus in and so the bus

became part of the mini social event as well as everyone up the back on the top so it's double

deckers at the top on the back like it's school the buses are great in dublin i wish i mean you

know part of it is they don't have a subway system in dublin or indeed i guess all of ireland but the

buses are are great they're very regular i mean yeah the bus to the airport i was telling my wife

oh my god if there was like a direct bus to get to the airport from places within boston you know

as it is now i can take public transport to get to the bus but it's like two different subway lines

plus a dedicated bus like it takes forever there are different social models

yes yeah i didn't you know i didn't yeah and it was nice to be in a room where you know there's

not that many americans um because it's jenga con europe so that perspective you know coupled with

my day job um i definitely appreciate i appreciate that but you know i would say if anyone's curious

i sort of expected to get more political questions from people about okay what's going on with your

country and i got almost none you know if i wanted to talk about it i could but you know people

i think maybe people in europe or other countries are more familiar with this idea of

not everyone identifies exactly with whatever your government and power is doing so um yeah that was

really an issue at all just in case anyone's curious yeah it's quite as well you don't want

to put a total downer on things all the time right yeah exactly um all right so we're we'll link to

some posts on this um in the jenga newsletter definitely will feature all the talks when they

come out um oh the last thing i want to say is i got a chance to talk to the organizers

um and just thank them because i think it's so much work to do these conferences i

every time i go to another one i appreciate i start to appreciate even more how much work it is for

the lead organizers but people just you know volunteering a check-in all the rest it's also

a great way to meet people to to volunteer but um i do recommend people take a moment to thank

the organizers for all the hard work yeah and this team in particular have been just outstanding

they've done um they were organizing porto before the pandemic pandemic came so that didn't happen

they did two years online they did porto um they've done vigo

um they didn't do any really vigo they've now done dublin they're now step so they you know just

absolutely you know rocks that conferences lent on over that really difficult period

um they're stepping back slightly they you know they're still doing pike on portugal so you know

if you fancy um you know a bit of python in portugal sunny portugal then do do look up for

that um but they this you know i was talking to david vass who's one of the team and he was very

much low we're still available to be around and to help people who come

you know to give our expertise and our experience to the people who come

um up next yeah which is huge because in the u.s there's been there is the defna the django events

foundation of north america which is a group that has existed to support and sometimes run

conferences and there wasn't really a european equivalent and this isn't formalized but

effectively they've kind of stepped into that role of providing that continuity and

and yeah and there's the now just grateful for their work the django con europe support group

which is there to sort of try and formalize the uh support working group which is there to try and

formalize this as we go forward what they had what they have around jancon us and defna is a lot of

institutional knowledge and that that that isn't institutionalized in the european you know there

are people who've done it and there are people who know but until it's sort of somehow institutionalized

until it's made more slightly more formal the danger is that it can drop through the gaps and

then we you know we have a continuity problem so hopefully that can be yeah you know but

again there are a couple of pitches in this year there's um i spoke to the conference at the

conference from people from multiple cities who are keen to you know try and put forward a proposal

so you know it seems like a really good and healthy time i think you know again with the dsf

you were talking about the dsf meetings meetings and talks around the dsf they were really positive

and you think yeah i think we finally finally come out of the the lull that we had after the pandemic

um but and i think it really was a pandemic and it's just taken a few years to recover

and a generational change of a sort not necessarily by age but just by involvement

coming to fruition so anyway good we've come on we've ran this was just supposed to be a quick

recap let's let them go get their coffee or whatever it is they're missing okay yeah thank

you for listening we'll we have a couple more this spring then we're taking the summer off

per usual and we'll be back in the fall with more episodes so

jango chat.com and we'll see everyone next time join us next time bye