Transcript: Foxley Talent - Jon Gould

Carlton Gibson joined us ever by Will Vinson.

Hello, Will.

Hi, Carlton.

Hello, Will.

Hello, John.

Nice to uh get on and and chat with you.

Thank you for coming on.

So would what do you want?

Ah we should we should let people know who you are, because I'm excited to have you on and chat about the various topics, but people might not know you.

Too for people in the audience, who how would you introduce yourself?

Who are?

Um worked in tech recruitment for nearly 15 years and for 14 and six months of that within the Django and Python uh community world um with mostly within the UK um up until um probably the last 18 months, it's been very it was always very much UK focused.

Um not sort of your typical recruiter, or I've always tried to buck the trend in that sense, but I have been very sort of influenced and led by the various community involvements.

Um and I suppose over the last 12 of those 14 years, heavily involved in like London's community the Django community with through various uh um guises, which we'll probably I know we'll we'll try and cover off.

Um and la uh no, it's not last year anymore, the year before last we um I took the plunge and set up my own business, which is Foxy Talents, um, with the the mission, the goal to be the go-to recruiter for the Python and and Django community globally.

Um and with just taking a very community-first approach to everything, if it's the right thing to do, we'll do it.

Um very you know, so very different.

Okay, that's good.

I'm gonna go straight in there.

So you're recruiter, right?

Django, how do you focus?

What's led you to focus on Django?

I mean, it seems like quite a clever thing looking at what you've been doing the last year or so.

And yeah, it's like niche down, get a get a name in a particular area.

That sounds like a great idea, but my experience of recruiters, which is quite long, they're they're they're not usually very good at matching a particular skill set to a job.

It's like very much fire off random emails and see what sticks.

Um six years later.

and know three or four people who will fit it if they're available or interested, um, and then do the other work behind the scenes.

Um I I initially I started my career in 2008 um as a contract recruiter for software engineers within the south of the UK, and that was my remit.

Um trying to, I think I've uh sourced dot net developers, C engineers, Java developers, um, a bit of any, yeah, at that point, anything or anything that was software sort of fell to me, and it was just purely by chance in 2008, I think I was trying to I was working with a.NET developer in East Anglia, sent them to a their profile, um agreed to send it to a couple of places that I kne

w in the city of Norwich, Norwich Union being one of them, who were uh at that point unknown to me, were a big Django user.

Um and they turned around and said, look, we don't really need any.NET developers, but if you know a Django developer or two, we'd take them on for we've got projects all of next year.

So it just sort of it happened.

I didn't know what they were talking about.

I've held my hands up and was like, I I'm happy to take a brief on what you're looking for.

I've never heard of this before, but I can definitely find you somebody if you trust me and give me the opportunity to do it.

Um found the two two contractors who started like the following week.

Um they then we met, they needed a couple more, then they needed three or four more, and before I knew it, I was scouring the whole of the UK for anybody who worked with Django, and this is 2008, so it's three years old.

Just nobody was really recycling on job boards.

In terms of like it might they might be in their first job using Django, so they're not then looking for work because they're happy because they've found somewhere that commercially uses Django, so there's nobody who was using the job boards, LinkedIn wasn't really a thing.

Twitter was somewhere that I suppose I I'd started following because I you know follow the football club I support, and then I thought actually I don't wonder if any developers are here, um, sort of found the Django community there, and then through that I found I think it was the the London Python dojo was happening, and I just felt if I can go go along there, I might get to meet some of these people in person, or at least some of the people that I'm talking to, and just learn a

bit more.

There was another meetup run by uh a chap in London which was less technical, more social, which was called the um the piss up pyssup, and it was just meet in the pub and have some beers and talk Python and Django.

So I was like, Oh, do you mind if I come along?

And it's you know the the chap who ran it was very accommodating.

It's like yeah, look, come along, you know, it's it's not really a recruiting event.

I'm not uh just sort of said I'm not really there to recruit, I just want to chat and find out a bit more about why people work with this tech.

And the whole that was sort of the point where I found that I really resonated with what open the whole open source movement is about, and every developer I was speaking to, their first question wasn't what's the day rate or what's the money like, it was tell me about the project, is it interesting, cat what tools are they using, why and it was like this is where I want to be.

Um and yeah, just over time um sort of became a more and more embedded, attended different meetups, um and yeah.

Is this like a sort of secret knowledge that you've hit on that to turn up to community events, be involved in the community?

ers in the pub afterwards or something like that, and we'll be there shaking hands with everybody in the room, introducing themselves, asking where people work, whether they're looking for a job, and if they're not they move on and just sort of work the room and then leave before the talks, um, or halfway through the talks, and it it's and then they'll never come back because they didn't hit they didn't find anybody.

Um whereas uh I suppose it's for me it was just I actually I enjoyed going there, I met people regularly, so the same people were always usually the same people, at least the same core of people.

You have the same follow-up conversations, you chat and like example, I was at the London meetup in November, maybe.

Is it November?

I've been following what you're doing.

We we sort of exchange it.

It's just there it's more over the time it's developed into more friendships and you know, recruiter, contractor, recruiter candidate sort of relationships.

Yeah we I still get it at times we've got oh my god oh you're a recruiter no I'm not looking I was I'm I wasn't going to ask

Like that was my experience in San Francisco way back is like the people who are friendly and outgoing every single time recruiter which is fine but it was like um just yeah I I prefer someone just to say it right instead of three minutes in.

I mean because I never felt that way I think re but if you do I guess it's easier just to lead with who you are.

You said my one of my stand longstanding jokes every time I hosted a meetup um where we had speakers and talks and a and a a sponsored venue was every person who spoke would normally say and this is me where this is where I work and we're hiring and at the end of I I it would always be me going I'm the recruiter here hosting the event and I'm the only one who's not going to pitch anyone for a job tonight.

I think that's the rules yeah

Like why aren't more people doing what you're doing like does is it is does it winnow out or is that an inaccurate description?

I I I joined I moved into recruitment when I was about 26 so I wasn't the young I wasn't a fresh young grad um I had responsibilities and I had um like a reason personally to to be successful that um my partner at the time when I joined I started in recruitment in the beginning of February 2008 my partner became pregnant in May 2008 and my son was born on the 5th of January 200

9 so I immediately having just left the job I needed to get my earnings back on track um and so I dedicated every sort of spare hour in that nine month ten month period to really understanding what I was doing and um getting to working out what was work what worked for me and that's where the the Django world suited as well um I just it just clicked um

so the usual trajectory is somebody joins with no recruitment experience they're day one you're given a a database of old people call them see where see if anyone's available for work or interested and if they are here's some jobs that they might like very throw stuff at a wall see if it sticks um and but you can you can progress through your career if you if you have targets and go from being a trainee to a uh hav

ing more responsibility with client side and you know more autonomy being a senior recruiter then a maybe a team leader um then managing a team which is a journey I went on I um when I was employed for the same company for 10 12 years my trajectory was very sort of traditional in that I grew a team my desk became busier I found somebody else to do the I was working Python Django that had somebody went doing front end then PHP then some user experience and design all

that accompanied it really but always under the guise of this is your your remit where you can build um and over time that um yeah it was it was growing a team and I got further and further away from the hands-on involvement with people and the community and it was part of the trigger when I left was that I really wanted to get back into um the part of the job

I really enjoyed which was the community side.

So you can go on that trajectory and people leave because it is hard work.

Maybe they aren't naturally good at working with people ironically like mentoring people or they're not very you know they've hit the the the achievement they've they've received some accolades in their company and then they go off to go and either set up on their own or do this and then it's too difficult and it doesn't yeah careers can peter out um because it's there's not much in terms of like a barrier to entry um anybody with any background can do recruitment but to do well you have to

be a bit more invested I think.

It's like because you're a market maker essentially you're matching jobs to candidates so how do you get the relationships with the companies that must be quite a a difficult thing too no I mean because it's compet massively competitive

way that I do it isn't necessarily print off this is the how-to um and I much prefer that I don't want to be sending out you know blacked out CVs and all the key information redacted and phone calls and all all of the noise that I'm sure happened still I would much rather people go John I uh somebody I know knows you they like you can you help us um

range like why is it that on an appropriate yeah yeah so or in a direct email and you say well you know they say well well you we've seen your thing on GitHub we basically did a search and you came up and we're sending the same form email to everybody.

Blah blah blah we got this right we might be interested you say okay well what sort of range is it and they're like oh we can't tell you you know come on give me a clue

or establish like exactly where it is um where it needs to be if especially if they're only working one job because they're not really a specialist they've got they want to speak to you they want to find out whether you'd maybe take a pay cut because it's an interesting thing but to put that on an email or a message might be there.

But no it's there's there's only so many time much time in the day this is the salary this is what they're paying like do you want the job or not um yeah

I guess what I I'm often of the opinion that it's easier to understand what someone actually wants even if they don't themselves don't see it.

I'm curious if there's certain patterns if someone you know especially a developer comes to you and says this is what I think I want and you're like no it sounds like you really want this over here.

I'd imagine you like right like oh I want to be at a small company but I'm at a big company or vice versa.

Are there some patterns that you see just with all your um experience?

most um you know the the why that I mentioned in the the the the the talk previously it's them the trick it's always trying to find that trigger that made somebody apply or get in touch and write right it's like it can't just purely be like say that one I'd like to work in renewable energy but everything else about my current job is great there must be something else that's wrong that's made you have that thought um which is what we'll try and establish through th

rough a conversation um understanding what is yeah really going on whether it's you've been overlooked for a promotion whether it's um there's a a technology that your business don't want to adopt that you want to use in your in your career it's it could be there's too many people ahead of you in line for um opportunities it could be that the business isn't performing and you're worried about the security the industry you're in so many variables but if

we can understand and at least you know understand together what the key thing is um I'm a um like a belligerent note taker I will always write stuff down and even at the towards the end of a search if somebody isn't if they've strayed from what we originally said I don't mind taking like a a a picture of it and sending it to them and going this is what I wrote down when we first spoke are you sure that's going to tick this box for you?

It's like a psychiatrist.

Oh maybe

How do they get on your radar or company's radar?

Like what's your current advice for right here's the things you should prioritize.

or have got teams in locations nearer to you remote jobs we are what everyone is working on how efficient we can be but I don't think it's completely perfect for a junior I think again identifying this the technologies that you want to work with and looking for a company where if you've got if you're a career changer so if you've got a career in another sector and you've developed lots of skills that could almost be traded if you're you know maybe been an accountant

you've become a a software developer and that's where you want to go try and maybe find a a company who build accountancy software and trade a little bit of your industry sector knowledge with the the opportunity to learn and develop um your career as an engineer.

Another tip would be to not every it's it's it's not that easy always to identify companies who work with Django I know there's a a page where there's a list of all you know people recommend sites that have been built with Django and they're all listed but that can take some time to go through and look for jobs on I always direct people to the Python job board on python.org.

I used to send people towards like Django gigs and those sort of those sites um there's not very much traffic on them anymore.

Direct them to the job pages on current and previous conferences um and looking at the sponsor pages as well because people are yeah they're either trying to sell their product because it's relevant to the Django sector or any sector um same advice um or to go to um yeah the companies who who spent money sponsoring and say look I'll send a send an email to HR director or HR person or

the technical director and say I've seen you're involved in this conference this meetup this event this is my career this is what I'm trying to achieve can you know would there be any opportunities for me to join your team and not everyone's hiring it's difficult at the moment but those are some good places to go and to start a further piece of advice would probably be to attend a a meetup in as in your location rather than waiting for a conference we're very lucky in in

London that we've got the London Python dojo which is always probably the first port of call where I thought I'd suggest people go to because it's live coding experience as well we've got the London Python meetup we've got the London Django meetup and then I run a Django social in London as well.

So there's opportunities there just to get in and around people and talk to people doing the job you want to do.

Yeah and you know opportunities just sort of come up in that way

If you you'll see where to go and it's

Like and

share this part.

Yeah.

So you would find these you know these groups right groups of five or ten engineers and the the leader would go and then they'd bring all their friends and they would get a cut of it and then after three years they go to the next place and you know um what what about um personal sites blogging is that important or is that overrated do you think

say that part is more important because you can say this is me, this is what I'm doing this is the stage of my career I'm at and this is what I'm trying to achieve um and in that you could say I'm looking to change industry I'm looking to work in this sector and then as long as then that is truly what you're trying to move for and it's you know that that's a really powerful thing to have at the top address an elephant in the room if you've had a year out in b in the past because of a a thing address it in there and then it's it's it's done I

think you listing your personal personal projects so even linking GitHub or Stack Overflow or anywhere you you keep your projects whether it's on your personal site again really important because people will click through and look at those probably more so than reading what your your first job out of university was.

than their projects.

So yeah.

I mean what's your sort of take on the balance there between

at uh conferences or you contribute to anything list it on your C V because that just it just it will differentiate you from um the the average developer who's maybe doing it as a career as a to somebody who's actually passionate about helping and growing and giving back and everything there.

List it it's what again after so you'll you'll probably see like on a C V it's open a statement if there's a skills matrix people will look at that just interesting what technology people use.

Last job, mostly last job title and any skills associated, and then I tend to skip to the bottom to see if there's anything interesting on someone's C V that I can talk to them about that isn't the job, build a bit of rapport, and then um you can then talk about jobs a little bit more freely.

And again, if you're interviewing somebody, try and I'll say, look, try and find them on um if you're being interviewed, try to find the interviewer online, whether they've got a Twitter account or a socials anywhere, see what they they're interested in, see if you can build a a personal connection before you get too deep into why you're very good.

I think that's quite clever.

I mean, it's like I always think if if there's if someone just has a CV, it's like I can ask you generic questions, but if somebody has like if somebody wants to work in Django and they have a couple projects on GitHub, like let's just jump to talking about that, because that's more what a real work like you kind of skip the first stage, it's a real work-like environment.

And at least I find that people people are insecure about what they know and they they feel bad about not knowing something, when really the question is how how self-aware are they of their knowledge and how quickly can they learn?

Because obviously someone more senior can tell, and the question is not like I'm not trying to make you feel bad.

I want to see why you make these decisions and how how self-aware are you of your knowledge, right?

That's for me, anyways, the test, right?

Like, oh, I see you use this package, just tell me why.

You know, it's not a um anyways, that that kind of conversation is way more interesting than let's whiteboard some stuff or let's

Um I I I think that you know if you're that that might work for a a uh a you know a global giant and they've got they've they've got a certain way of recruiting, but I think there's there's such a human element at the moment, and there is a b uh a bit of a a battle for to good talent and lots of comp comp competition.

Half the job of the interviewer should be to leave the person you've spoken to wanting to work for your company, whether you proceed with them or not.

Um, because in the future they will they will you know tell their friends about um the experience they had, and even though it wasn't necessarily the outcome they wanted, they go, I really enjoyed this conversation with this company, and they've taken a lot of interest and I'd love to work there in the future.

Um, you should apply.

So my experience, especially at startups, often it's like the most junior people are the ones who do the first cut, and the idea is well, they're closer in age, and um and they have basically no training on how to do it, right?

Like I remember I and some others would give them some questions, but you're asking a 25-year-old to or a 24-year-old to interview like a 21, 22-year-old.

Um, and they just don't have we don't have the training to give to them.

They don't often do a good job.

They're not sometimes they're thinking I want to be hard on this person just because someone was hard on me when I was interviewing.

Um, but in one of these interviews, we had someone who got to s got to the second or third stage, so they met with me, and so that's more of a culture fit.

And we like flew this person up from LA to San Francisco, right?

So we put some coin on the table, took them out to eat, and for whatever reason, my company card was declined.

Um so I just paid my personal card.

Like, and this person just wrote went on Glassdoor um and wrote like a really like just negative review, which was interesting because now they're being negative, and also like highlighting the card.

And I I was, you know, it was sort of like a code red because like, ooh, we there's only one glass door review for us, and it's this like horrible thing, someone being like, they don't have any money and they did a bad job.

But it was also like I just couldn't understand why that person would want to put that out there because if I'm reading that about that person, that that just sounds like a pill.

Um but anyways, that's that's one of those, you know, I guess that's a long way of saying uh often people in in companies don't have any training, and the people who make that impression are just you know, they're just kids, and they don't, you know, it's not impressed upon them, hey, you're supposed to be giving a good impression out there for us in the world.

Because that's kind of I'd imagine where the money is, and that's where as you build up a reputation, um, in some ways maybe it's easier to place those people.

Like, or what's the mix for you, right?

How do you avoid that?

Like, how do you still find time to place like an individual developer when perhaps a more senior person is worth I don't know, I don't know what the numbers are, you know, but it's worth more more coin.

Um so yeah, it make commercially probably makes more sense to to work with more senior management and and people, but I find there's less turnover of those sorts of people.

Um I enjoy the the the the sort of the sweet spot and the thing that we really uh openly say that we're we're good at is from that like second job up to principal lead engineer is where we can really sort of I suppose hack add the most value to a job search for somebody because it's the the the companies we work with are either constantly on the lookout for mid to senior level developers because they want to get them at a point where they've got knowled

ge and passion and interest and then they can help them to progress internally and therefore if you bring progressing from mid into senior into leadership roles, you're probably more likely to stay.

I don't quite know the the the psychology behind that, but it's it's very much that's where there's more like more volume, more opportunities.

Um I think that's probably where it is.

I mean I've probably placed one CTO engineering director level person in the last two years.

It's it's just not necessarily happened, and we we help we get a lot more from the the lower you know the earlier career people.

Because like I you know, I see so many people saying it's hard to get that first.

So um I th it's people do hire juniors whether it's dictated to by budget, whether it's dictated to by um uh a need to attract talent and hold on to it.

So again, finding people who want that opportunity where they'll prove loyal and stay for a while.

It whether it's just you've got the size and the capability of some senior engineers who want to mentor juniors.

And that's probably the big thing.

Like um I generally for a junior suggest looking for um not necessarily grad schemes, but trying to go and like I said before, about approaching companies who hire at the higher level and asking the question, say like I like your company because of X, Y, and Z.

Are you hiring?

Don't just send a CV and hope because you'll just end up never hearing back.

Um it's about targeting it.

Um there are some places um, in particular in the UK, I know um Torchbox do a really good um junior academy and take sort of three, four people per year from with no experience, whether it's graduate, career changer, um and take them into their academy and train them through their business.

But there's it's trying to identify more of those um of like where people go after that first stage, but I'm sure there's a way to do it.

Um I'm sure companies who hire juniors will um yeah if there's somewhere to s to put your hand up, because again it's trying to find good juniors.

Um I mean again that would be for the where the going to the meetups helps because if your company look at who is willing to hand the to hire juniors, if a junior turns up to a meeting, you know, you're like, oh well, there's a prospective candidate.

I mean he was a Google Summer of Code and he's a superstar, but you know, I guess technically that was his first job, but he'd already contributed to Django.

So you kind of leap, you know, it's possible to leapfrog that step.

Though I guess he got mentoring you know from you, Carlton, and others, but um you know, having something that's open source or yeah.

So he did the Google Summer of Code, I did the um cross DB JSON field, yeah, as a as a university student, and then he's finished and he's he's now working on Wagtail as a on a paid basis, which is he

I mean, I know in the US Cactus Group, uh which is an agency in North Carolina, they also do some mentoring.

I've talked with them.

It's just yeah, it's challenging for companies to uh to make it work.

And at least as a company, the reason why everyone wants two to five years experience is they already know something, but they're malleable and they're cheap.

And that's kind of the that's the company perspective that I'm familiar with.

They bring on the the the the juniors.

Why can't it work for a development company?

Because mid-level role good mid-level developers, they're rarer than who knows what.

I mean, that's um so Dimitri Cactus Group, for example, he's he was a he was a teacher, a math teacher, um, who got into programming, so he enjoys that.

So it's a retention thing for staff too.

But not right, not every company has developers who want to do that.

Um but if you do, then it makes a lot of sense.

But anyways, let's talk about um Django Social.

So we'll link to the site.

Um people should check it out.

Like what's what's what Yeah.

Oh no, it's please no, I mean go look at Simon Willison's layout, right?

I mean, the more the more badass you are, the worse your site should look.

And your site looks way better than Simon's, right?

Um it well yeah, interesting.

So this is a really good segue because this site was built by a um uh junior developer who contacted me in about June, July last year, just finished his GCCs in the UK, so he's 16 years old, had the summer off, and wanted to get some advice about picking up a project to um to put on his CV because he wants to be a Python developer when he's when he grows well, not when he's grows up, but when he when he leaves education.

Um and it just came about that I was trying to get a site together for Django Social and just said, look, if you'd like a bit of summer work and somewhere to put on a CV, here we go.

Um and yeah, he's now he he started his A levels, and I'm sure in two years' time there's gonna be a really keen Python developer deciding whether to go to university or or to go hands-on into um into career.

Um but yeah, so Django Social um yeah is um uh I suppose a simple to run meetup which can be picked up by anybody anywhere in any city and started.

I spent years involved with another meetup in London called Juggle, which was the Django User Group London um DJ U G L, um started by some of the original global radio people trying to get people together in London, and over time I was regularly attending it and had had helped out with a bit of sponsorship, paying for the beers and the pizzas, and then there

was a venue let let the group down at the last minute.

So I fortunately in my job is I was going around a lot of offices, meeting people who use Django, and I was like, actually, I know somewhere that could host, let me call them, see if we can work someone out.

Um so then I was they were like this works really well.

I found a couple more venues.

Um so I was effectively helping with the the sponsorship, the venue organizing, and then again I was speaking to Jenga developers all day, every day.

When there was a slot for a speaker needed, I already had a like a little list of people who are working on interesting projects.

So suddenly it was like I was doing every aspect of it, but it became so much admin to find a venue, to find some speakers that can all make the same day, um set it up, get there early, put out chairs, that it they became less and less frequent.

Um and um I when I when I decided when I after I started working for myself, I thought I really wanted to get some community things happening in London again, but I don't want all that admin because life is busy, start working a startup is busy.

I just want to pick a day and something to do and bring people together.

So Django Social, we have done we've walked around the park, we've had sat in the park and had a picnic, these are summer ones, not right now, it'd be horrible.

Um we we did a board games night, we did a really successful co-working day, just brought 10, 12 people who work usually on their own together for the day.

And the idea is that it's just bringing people together with a common interest that's Django and doing something together as opposed to learning always.

Um Yeah, I just it'll be sounds like kind of what you're doing, but it's um you know, those are exciting because those are like very targeted and um yeah, one of the one of the highlights for me of of Django Con this year is I actually stayed for the sprints for the first time at Carlton's recommendation and and they're they're fantastic.

They're in some ways um so it's like why do we need to have a conference to have the sprints?

Um so it would be some I guess somewhere in between a few years.

It's just trying to obviously if you're get getting together for a weekend, there's there's obviously the the middle night that there isn't people might want to put their laptops away for an hour or two and do something sociable.

And yeah, that's that's where like I don't I I'm not clinging on to Django Social and saying everything has to go through me.

If somebody wants to run one, then fine, go for it.

It's it it should be just yeah, it's for the community now.

I I'd much rather just pass it on.

I I it I mean it's but it's one of those it's it's it's that low admin carts and I've done nothing for it.

And because because they're not identified, that work is a hidden.

This is one of the sort of long-term the the big um recurring themes of open source, but also it's really hard to get people to come and replace it because you can't say, hey, I need a volunteer to do X or to do Y.

And so, you know, one of the really important things that you know this comes out of Nadia Eggbull's work and related work around that, but it is to first of all identify the work and then say, well, thanks, you know, say thanks to all those people, because then that creates the job the to-do list and the call for volunteers, and it becomes a sort of um virtuous circle.

I just wondered if, like, from your experience of sort of being that that one person deep in the hole, organizing it and sl and sort of right slowly running out of puff, you wouldn't

the un an unsung like hero role, really.

And I'm not saying that because I do it, but it's um it's yeah, I think there's actually more but in theory there's far less to running a Django social.

It can like weather permitting, it's as simple as going, let's just meet here, we'll go for a walk for an hour, and if anybody knows a pub afterwards we could go to let's just go there.

Um or or other, you know, for a coffee or whatever, it's it doesn't need a lot of thought.

That's good.

But yeah, just that that sort of checklist of these are the things to consider.

I think that's a a uh you know valuable resource.

What what could we do that's different?

What's what's a a good event, and yeah, whether it's a sprint, you know, a tech sprint or doing all there's there's so many different options.

Um it's just like what do you do at a weekend?

Um you know, can we go to a mini golf or can we go and do a um take the pedlos out on the lake at the uh Hyde Park?

And yeah, it could be anything, it doesn't even have to be very it's not tech centric, it's just people.

And mini golf reminds me that when I met I never played really mini golf growing up, but I played actual golf, and when I met my my wife, one of our first dates, we went to play mini golf.

And I said, Oh great, like that sounds fun.

So I brought my own putter and my own ball.

And she just still to this day made fun of me.

I was like, but it it matters, right?

You know, like I'm not gonna use a terrible putter.

Like the balls are the balls are crap.

Like, like right?

I mean, it makes so much sense to me.

Why would I use deliberately awful equipment to do that?

Um but if anyone listening, you know, I got now.

I just use the terrible balls and put and the terrible balls, balls, and well, but come on, right?

Like if someone is like, did you win?

She still hasn't beaten me, you know.

So she's she's good, um, but you know, so it'll I I'll usually like not pay attention and then she'll she's always like keeping score, and then if she beats me on the on the front nine, I'm like, okay, I gotta focus.

And I mean, I I want her to win actually.

It's not that I want to beat her, but I'm not gonna let her win.

Yeah, because like my like my little brother, like he also plays, and our dad when we were growing up said um offered him fifty dollars if he ever beat me, and uh that still hasn't happened.

So it's again same thing.

Like, I'll be screwing around, my brother will play well, and now big, oh right, I gotta focus, and then yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, so yes, I would be in favor of mini golf and I won't bring my own putter, but inside I'll silently be upset if I miss a putt.

And I'm like, I would have made that with my right one, my correct gear.

Right?

Like you wouldn't go, you wouldn't go if you're a Mac developer, you someone wouldn't be like, let's go do some Django work and let's bring a Linux machine or a Windows.

Like it doesn't make sense.

Like anyways.

So yeah, I'm in favor of that.

Um I you know, now that now that I'm now that I'm not on the Django board, I mean, one of the things that would be I can speculate, and um one of the things that'd be nice to do is you know, just have funding for this weekend, right?

So we could say like, hey, like here's a half dozen people that in the in the Europe and Django will pay your plane tickets and rooms and you're gonna do a sprint, right?

And it's not directly paid for.

That would be but anyway, so I'm um Carlton, can we can we discuss your you've made it public, your your situation with Django?

Um I've been there five years, January 2018 I started.

It's now 2023.

So it's you know, I I love Django deeply.

I'm not going anywhere, but it's time for me to um to do something else.

Um it's um it's been a massive honour.

Um, but you know, time to and time to to just change, really.

Um last few releases, there's been an awful lot that's come together.

Um uh, you know, with async, with um the forms changes, with database constraints.

It's just the list goes on and on and on, and there's lots now where it's it's like there just aren't the patterns that are known.

Like that there's there's lots of new stuff that needs to be played with, and those patterns need to be codified, and you know, I want to play with them and I want to I want to codify them.

Um and I can't do that whilst I'm you know um managing the fire hose of incoming tickets you know on a weekly basis.

So it's time for me to step back.

So hopefully there'll be there will the the call should go out sometime soon-ish for a new fellow.

Um, I've have said, you know, I've been banging the drum for since 2018 about how, unlike the community, the contributors to Django Core, the co-contributors to Django Django are mostly men, almost all, entirely men.

So if you are listening to this and you're a woman in the Django community and you want to chit just chat about you know what the fellow role might involve, then reach out to me and I'm really happy to put some time aside and just you know talk you through it.

It's not that doesn't mean you have to apply it, it doesn't mean anything.

But if you think, oh yeah, I could be the fellow, do reach out.

So um what

Carlton, can we mention that I mean the the there's to stereotype, there's a difference sometimes in like how men and women approach these roles, right?

Where men are like, I'm a good fit, and women are like, I'm not I don't think I'm a good fit, but right, like some of the emails you got immediately.

Um I think blokes just have no idea if they're like any self-awareness or limitations or anything at all.

They're just idiots, basically.

And but yeah, I'll do that.

Like, Lord, give me the confidence of a mediocre white man.

So, you know, you if you're listening, oh no, it's not for me.

No, no, no, do reach out.

Like, there's no reason, and so one thing I also said to the um fellowship committee was that if if needed, I was happy to transition away to to do some mentoring.

So, you know, I'm that's a genuine offer that I made, but I'm not gonna that that's not I'm not making that just for anybody, I'm making that for the right candidate who's needs a bit of help.

And if if that happens, then I'll you know I'll phase out over a a period of time.

But I would really like it if it wasn't just you know, if if we get another white bloke, we get another white bloke, but uh I would really like it if we at least had can uh applications that didn't fit into that category.

Um so I don't know if that's gonna happen or not, but um you know Django itself is a lot more diverse than the co-contributors to Django to the Django repo.

So why is that?

Um you can follow the Django news newsletter if you want to just get a weekly dose of stuff.

Um I have one I guess I have one more question for you, John, which is how do you think about working in-house versus doing your own thing?

I mean, obviously you've chose to do your own thing, but that's also a pattern where somebody, you know, a company's like, we're growing growing like crazy, we need Django developers, we've already worked with a freelancer, like come in-house, like how do you evaluate the pros and cons of that?

I love what I do with the variety of people that we work with, the variety of companies that we could support.

Um I mean I've got I've got personal goals that I want to achieve and using Foxley and our work to to do that.

And those are some of those are changing, and I think you know I don't think I can give back to the community.

Well for me, the person the thing that's makes me tick is to give back to the community that has given me a career and these opportunities, it's it's so important to do that.

Without Django, I'd never have I'd never end up doing what I do.

Um and I don't th I couldn't do that by working internally.

Um but I think it's a I think it's I think it's a really good it's a really good career move if it it suits your lifestyle and I think going back to one of the earlier questions about the the career trajectory of a recruiter, some not everyone wants to be working 12 hour days, taking phone calls in the evening.

Um not saying that internal talent teams don't do that, but it's um it's gonna be the right job for the right person.

Um why does a why why do people work on freelance or why do they work as a an in-house developer?

What yeah, it's the same, it's you you've got to feel that you line with that mission completely.

I lie, I feel my values align I suppose like in the business I'm building, in the in the mold that I want, having worked in other businesses before, I can do something different, I can do something that I feel feel good about.

Um and yeah, the the the mission we've got is to give back to Django to create or to say thanks and that sort of thing, so I can do that without running my own business now.

It's like you know, it literally gave me it's given me a whole career, and to be able to give back to it is just phenomenal.

I know Foxy

If if I'd said to the the the guys at Norwich Union, look, no, I don't know what Django is, I'm not interested in finding out where I'd be.

Um but no, I I yeah, it's it's just created everything that's

Can you tell us about that a little bit?

hundreds of contributors, two hundred and thirty odd actual individual members and I don't know what twenty, thirty companies who sponsor it.

Um maybe that's generous, I don't know.

Um but ever what I come across is people, individuals who we work with and help get jobs contribute to the Django Software Foundation, whether it be time, skill, money.

Um in theory, companies who use Django contribute back by either working on projects, giving up their developers' time, financially contributing, and our job and my business links developers to companies all using Django.

Why shouldn't we do something?

And I can give back by time, by getting involved in the the the social and attending conferences and being around to talk to people, experience skill.

I don't I don't I can't, but I can contribute financially.

Um so that's that's important to me.

Okay, cool.

I mean, you know,

Uh I think it's a good amount to give back.

And we I've got a a little personal goal that looking at the tiers on the um on the sponsorship

I'll do something on top um in that we're looking at growing the business in order for the business to grow we need people to want to work with us or come to us for help with their job search or to find them good talent and again if I'm I'm trying to work out like an affiliate not an affiliate scheme but a very basic if somebody refers somebody to us and we can make we help them in their job I will give another donation on top of the five percent um just as a rather than saying right here's £50 A

mazon voucher or here's what whatever I'd rather go I'm putting this in the pot that we all benefit from that and that's not a sales pitch it's just I I I'm passionate about it and I can't help so

urcing the process.

But so I guess one last final final question world domination so when when is the US office open for Foxly are you are you you're still very UK Europe focused is that fair to say

very casual and that's the sort of person I want to work with um I we've specifically this year are looking to work more within the US um with companies out there.

We're getting approached by people looking for work and it's just finding those companies who are looking to hire to to match up at the moment without having to do all the redacted information CV sending and sales calls um but yeah we're sort of looking at the Pi PiCon in April as a um event to attend looking at the careers fair there to to to get in and actually be able to just you know maybe present jobs to people

at a stand or just give career advice or just be there and create a bit of a presence backed up with DjangoCon in October um and getting out more and more um I know we mentioned about taking our golf clubs to that one will but it's um yeah it it's using events like that as the platform to reach more people and to do that.

So yeah the US is very much on our um remit and pipeline for this year.

Just needs people to more people to help um and people who want help yeah want to hire that's it um there's chicken and the egg um

And so uh your trajectory has been fantastic.

And it's also validating to see that there's a space for a dedicated Djang recruiter.

I mean I often feel like with you know with books and content like why aren't there more Django books?

You know sometimes I'm like maybe the space isn't big enough or someone hasn't done a a good enough job.

It feels like certainly on the recruiting side there are enough jobs.

It's just um nobody's put them out there as the Django you know recruiting shop.

And it's it's completely unnecessary as well because it's a pretty static page and there's not a lot of um flashiness to it.

But um yeah with that it's it's trying to I suppose cover a bit more of the the word about what we're doing.

I think if if I don't shout about it then I don't you know I can't rely on Adam um always just putting a good word in for us but which he's done like he's been such a great advocate for us um and attended all of the the meetups uh the Django socials when we when he was in London still um last summer it's yeah it's been great to have good people and yeah going to DjangoCon last in September in Porto attending there

and just having people to that we knew from various events and having been to the Denmark uh day conference in in April seeing the same people at both it's just that's what that that that's what I love about the community it's ever it's the same not the same people but it's a really good core group of people who really care and just want to share what they know and how um how in and improve the world we're all in in in the Django sector world.

Okay.

Anything else I think we're near on time is there anything Carlton for you or any plugs John

ally I suppose if anybody wants advice either about building a team hiring for the first time creating a um a good job spec or from the other side wants some you know is starting a job search and want some advice and some options I can I'm happy to talk about it.

There's no obligation to work with us it's just I can give good advice and hopefully we've got some opportunities that will appeal if you you are a job seeker.

Alright well thanks for coming onto it