Transcript: From Bootcamp to Project Manager - Keanya Phelps

I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hello, Carlton.

And we're very pleased to have Kenya Phelps join us, who is a project manager at Cactus Group, software engineer, and was chair of DjangoCon US in Chicago this fall.

Thank you for taking the time.

Excited.

Okay.

Well, I mean, like everyone's life was um blown up, imploded during the COVID years.

Uh that is where um I got into coding.

I actually um went to a coding book boot camp.

So I got into coding by way of coding boot camp.

A little backstory, my sister Jeanette O'Brien, she went through um Momentum Coding Bootcamp, which was located in um Raleigh, North Carolina.

She went through that and um loved it and became an instructor.

So um it was impersonal.

Like every time I had a tech question or anything, I would always reach out to my baby sister, Jeanette.

And one day, you know, one day she's like, you know, you could do this boot camp.

Like, I'm like, no, I couldn't.

I it took me three years to learn how to turn my computer on, and I'm definitely afraid of Mac Pro Books.

So um, no.

And she's like, no, you can do this.

I and it was more so she felt like she could teach anybody anything.

So it was more of a challenge for her.

And so I applied, and lo and behold, I got in.

And it was like more of a like a four-month intensive type, you know, uh 40 to 50 hour a week immersive training.

Um, much to my surprise and and delightment, if that's a word, I pick started picking up it up really quickly, and and I loved it.

And so there was an opportunity um for some fellowship work at Cactus.

So I interviewed with some folks over there at the end of the program, and they decided, okay, let's try her out, you know, for a few months to see if it works out, you know, starting off as a junior developer.

And I'm still here.

So apparently it works out.

It worked out.

So it worked out.

Yeah.

I mean, I I my in my previous life, I always um gravitated.

My career was more so in account management and self-support.

So that's probably how, and I in my mind, I wanted to be like a technical project manager.

I wanted to manage projects, however, I wanted to have the the technical um, you know, prowess, if you will, to be able to deliver projects.

So that I will say that was in the forefront of my mind during the boot camp that I did just um didn't I wanted to learn how to develop, but I also wanted to actually be a technical project manager.

And that's and

As a project manager.

That's what

And I know it sounds cliche, but I am a problem solver.

It probably doesn't sound cliche to you guys because you're you developers, you you like complex problems, you like to solve them.

So it's it is like seriously, being the oldest of six children.

I kind of like, you know, it's like I wrangle it.

I think it's just in my personality.

Um what um the thing that I like most about the project management side of it is the technical project managers outside of it is that you can't that that I am actually kind of like the I won't say yeah, the middleman of the technical part and then the client and product.

And I like having that context, being able to context switch from okay, yeah, I know it might take us three, three weeks to um write this code to okay, you know what, let me corral this particular developer because he's not he or she is not really filling this project, those types of things.

It's a challenge, but I like that.

And you know, one of the things that stood out.

I'm always like, you know, I I like a good project manager who you know acts as that shield between the project.

I mean, yeah, uh you probably s suspected that before, but can feel it now, right?

Like most developers have no desire to be project managers and are probably not great at it if they're put into that role.

So to be open to it and to enjoy it and to fill in the technical thing is that's a Venn diagram that's quite rare.

I um as a a uh my t my technical brain does not like to speak to clients, but when I put on my project manager hat, I um okay, you know, well, we're gonna let's let's do this, you know.

It's it's like, you know, I have, I don't know if you can kind of compare it to Beyonce, she says when she's on on stage, she's Sasha Fierce.

Yeah, I've heard this.

Yes.

Even I've

Who was I?

Sabrina Carpenter has like some name for her like alter ego.

Because a few, or maybe it was Tate.

Oh, I think it was Tate, no, Tate McCrae.

I think it's like Tot Tatiana, my daughter's all into her.

I don't know if Beyonce is, but yeah, adopt different personas depending on the context.

Yes, it's 100% that's me.

Like I'm like, I'm not gonna, you know, if I was ever in a meeting with Carlton and we'll uh talk in tech and and I would not be, you know, raising my hand to, you know, can I say this?

No, but however, if you had a project that was kind of on the verge of um running over budget or time, then I'm your girl.

I'm gonna, I am going to speak up loud and clear and we're gonna get it done.

I don't see a lot of bragging in the way that some tech communities, not all, do.

So I think it's very welcoming to, you know, hear Carlton, Jacob Kaplan Moss, all these people just say, I don't know, you know, to you know, of course they could and and as I've realized, and I'm sure you have too, the the correct mindset is, well, I don't know, but of course I could figure it out, right?

Because nobody can keep all of this in our head, right?

That's sort of the the challenge though, in a way, is some I feel like some domains you can kind of have a mental model of what you're doing, but coding is just so fractal that it's just impossible.

It's more like you eventually have a mental map and you're like, I'm gonna dive in and spend the time to learn how to do that thing, but I don't have to beat myself up because I can't remember anything.

You know, I if you know I used to beat myself up in the beginning when I was learning when I was um Googling, oh, wait, what is what is the Git workflow again for the 230th time?

I still

I mean I I still find that I will ask a question and uh find something I wrote because I phrased it, you know, just like that.

And I'm God, like, oh man, like, you know, five years ago, me was he had something going on.

Uh-huh.

And it's so weird that you say that, Will, because I remember I think it was at PyCon when I first met you.

I was carrying your book around.

Oh.

Well, I wrote the first edition.

Oh, was it?

Yeah, because I was at, was it it was PyCon, I think, last year, and I was at I was actually doing some work too.

And you a couple of chapters were helping it helped me to figure some things out.

And it was just so funny that you were at the the um that the stuff I think I forget what what sponsor it was, or you were at the booth and somebody was like, called you Wilvins.

And I was like, Sam Wilvins, and I was like, I have your book.

And then three months later, I'm at a PyCon, and you are the person who wrote the book, and I have your book in there.

It's just it, you can't make this up.

Or it was like, oh my god, I had and I have never met you.

So and I

I gave a talk on APIs, and Carlton was in the audience, and you know, to me, he was like Django Fellow, Django Rest framework co-maintainer, and came up to me after the talk, said some nice things, you know, gently corrected one or two things I said wrong.

And um well, no, you did.

I I I mean, you know, I I think it was more syntactical than anyways, did it in a very kind way, right?

And so yeah, I think, you know, so that's the model I have of like people are accessible, but also remembering like I was I was the same way.

I mean, I I learned how to code as an adult.

Um, I didn't have a boot camp.

It was literally me in a room for two years, um, pre-LLM getting scared to put something on Stack Overflow and get lit up, you know.

So um, yeah, I've sort of carried that anyway.

So I was just you know, you telling your story, I think um it's hard for unless you've done it, it's hard to realize it takes a lot of courage to to do a boot camp, to put yourself in a beginner position as an adult, right?

When you're running projects and all of a sudden, you know, interviewing people and now you're interviewing for an individual contributor role.

It takes, you know, it's I think it's good for your soul, but it's it's a yeah, it changes your perspective, right?

To do that as an adult.

A lot of people, I think, rightfully go, ooh, I don't want, I don't want to put myself in that solution.

Because it's uncomfortable for sure.

It absolutely it is.

And then I also I think about my experience and you know, from, you know, I always say prior prior career life to now.

And I kind of, you know, think about how other folks get to from point A to point B.

And I I I really do feel um lucky, blessed, because the folks that I've met along the way have been so generous, so just engaging, interesting, um friendly, a joy to be around.

And I just I I want that for everybody, and not just in coding and learning how to program and technical, just period, like in the work, like if you have to work, you know, because we who wants to work, but if you have to, you know, why not have it be this type of environment?

And that, and I've I've also because I've heard horror stories, and I'm like, oh my God, I just think about if that had been me, I I I don't think I could have continued.

So I I really feel the need, a strong need to pay it for it because, you know, it has been a joy, and I know it's not always the case for everyone.

So whatever little thing that I could do in my little corner of the internet, I am trying to do that.

Whatever I can do to pay it for it and help the next, you know, um, Django Knot, techie, whatever you want to call it, you know, a person who is changing careers later in life, you know, minorities who don't think, who don't feel seen or uh underrepresented people who are who don't feel seen, whatever I can do, because you you're right, I have that perspective and it's just yeah, something.

It it's huge.

It is.

Um, so when I got the the um full-time permanent position, it was amazing because I really thought that, okay, you know, they had an onboarding program, and I thought, you know, I I'm gonna learn a lot and then I'm gonna be thrown into the wolves to try to find a job.

But there were so many folks that um took the time to pair program, um, show me the ropes, just be human.

I guess it is.

Like I hate when the bar is that low, but but they are beautiful, they beautiful folks like Tobias, the the the founders, Tobias and Colin.

They are so accessible, they are so much fun to work with.

In my experience, I don't know if folks are out there that that that don't that don't have that experience, that um experience with them, but it's a fun place to work.

It was a nice place to land.

Like I said, very blessed.

And I just assumed that it would be a fellowship, but I'm here.

That was in 2022.

I'm still here.

Um, and we're still doing it, still liking my job, still loving the I was gonna I was gonna say go into the office, but no, we don't have to go into the office.

We do, we do two or three times a year.

I mean, I think we yeah, the sprints, the sprints for DjangoCon 23 and 24 were there.

And I was like, well, you could get some work for the book.

Yeah.

We do we do uh um an office week.

Um we try to do it quarterly.

Like I'll be in Durham probably January or early February for a week.

And we um I I do feel like I've had remote jobs before, even before programming, and I feel more connected to the people, the folks that I work for or work with, I'm sorry, at Jang uh at Cactus, even more so than folks that I work went into the office every day.

Like there is a there's a something there.

Like we I we feel connected.

Because it can, I mean, you know, getting together every so often is a is an obvious one, but are there you know, in the day-to-day, are there things that really work, really help you?

There we try to make it meaningful.

So a lot of times we have um specific meetings for specific things.

And I think the culture has been, since I've been here, has been open and honest.

So I don't really feel like folks are afraid to speak up and you know, have conversations where I just feel like when you have honest conversations um that it fosters it just fosters a deeper connection.

So it's not just a lot of a ton of surface conversations, like, you know, we are definitely digging into because it's a smaller team now.

So we have to I I always say we have to stay efficient because we don't have a lot of um, you know, uh human resource, so to speak.

We have a lot tons of tech, software, whatever, but the people, we have to make sure that we nurture the folks, the people, because that's what's making this train stay on the track, to in my in my opinion.

So yeah, there are some.

Uh-huh.

Absolutely.

So I think that, you know, we try to check in with each each other.

Um, I can sense when folks are um overwhelmed or, you know, might need a little something like that's just the that instinct that I have.

Um not patting myself on the back, it's just that I have that

And I think too, because um, you know, we have some see uh quite a few seniors on the team now.

So I think sometimes they get bogged down and because they're so brilliant.

And I I I I'm like, you know, come on, let's step back now.

Let's, you know, let's see the forest.

Yes.

So that is um a way that we try to stay connected.

But definitely we uh when we have our in-office events, we um we come in the office, we're in that office that week working with each other.

It's always funny the first day.

It's like so quiet, you can hear a mouth, a pin drop.

And it's like, I when I work, if if I'm writing code, I have to have my house music on and I have to have background.

And then I always talk to my dog.

Like Graham is my coworker.

So it's so weird that when I'm in an office because it's so it's just a different environment.

You have I'm like, okay, can I turn this music on or is it gonna bother someone?

That's always funny.

Yeah, right.

Oh no, social graces what are these I mean I I for for for a long time I would um my wife could tell if I'd been like stuck on something for a while because I would have like stretch like coating hair because I would sit there just like this and so I'd come out with like this wall of hair and she's like oh you've been like you know stuck on something for a while I was like oh I guess I have a tell yes the wall haircut.

ning how to code not to code again.

So I'm always like you know so whenever I I you know I'm figuring something out and he hears yes he he'll be like oh she wants to figure something out you know

And so you don't um you don't get like the dopamine hit of fixing a PR or fixing something and making it work right whereas learning how to code, yeah there's long periods of frustration but like you do get that like oh yeah like I I did something.

You know?

And I mean you're doing something when you're managing a team obviously but it's a different kind of thing.

It's a di it's less of a spike of you know oh done on to the next right it's more of like yeah oh yeah you know keeping everyone happy.

Um so anyways that was really a nice feeling having come from a couple years of managing to then yeah just like oh I did this like I got that and um yeah it's an it I just saying that because you I'm sure you could relate to that feeling too.

That was one of the things that was sort of surprising and I think that people who come from maybe an engineering background and then promote it into management they go, oh my God, like I don't feel good because I don't get that feeling of completion um that I had right when I was rolling my sleeves up and doing it.

that he was like why are you it it's it's fine with those types of things because you know it's like you know no I just want you to look at it don't share it until like no but it was funny because that actually happened I think it was yeah it was yesterday or the or Friday and you know just to quickly um review my PR write it in in our stand up I was like I had to clutch my pearls I was like oh my goodness to

me that oh I love working with you Kenya because you are it's a new you know you you have a new what you bring newer ways to looking at things and you know they remember when they were learning like you said what you you remember and exactly so I when we did um DjangoCon Europe Tobias and I um we did something about uh we did a talk on pair programming and at the

time I was pair programming with the founder of the company and I was still kind of junior but it worked for us he's my favorite person to pair program like I I some people are like really like he's a senior engineer I mean you know Tobias you know Colin but they are my favorite folks to pair program with because I learned so much it's fun because it's always something like you know if we're doing a live share we're we're working

and I'll ask a question and Colin was good with this like I I I'd be like well do you think you know XYZ we should say he was like well I don't know let's try it out and I'm like really we could do that

as like honestly like and the this one person in particular I I mentored for a while and eventually we kind of stopped because it got to the point where I was like I don't know like you're asking good questions we're just gonna both go you know she got into the she gotten the reps to you know kind of approach it like a senior person which is to say okay I have this tapestry of kind of understanding but yeah I don't you know it's like you just get better at figuring stuff out it's not that you know how to do a particular thing um or you know again the questions like it's it's I still find

it so interesting when people write good you know ask good questions right you know or ask any question right if it comes from a place of like they're they're curious and they don't quite get it you know maybe it's something I've heard before but sometimes it's it's a new angle on something and I have to reconsider oh maybe maybe I could explain that thing better or maybe maybe they have a real insight like why do we why do people do it that way it's like oh I just sort of it's ingrained that we just do it that way but maybe there is a better way to do it.

Um so I guess I would just say in pair programming situations the senior person gets something out of it too if you're the junior person.

Like don't think they're just doing it for you.

They're definitely getting something from it too.

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I think that like this exact this phenomenon I think is just what it is to be programming right that you come to any problem it's like how are you going to solve it?

Well okay you might know that you know if you're if you've done it that kind of problem you might know well we're gonna use this we're gonna use that but the actual details of it every single time you're working it out and that's that's the fun of it so it's not like you know you're I'm I'm working with a junior the junior doesn't know and I do it's like we've got to discover the solution together and

like I wonder what it feels like to be Carlton Gibson you know like or you know and it's in a sense it's that feeling of like okay I have some understanding but I don't know like I'm just constantly learning stuff and learning that it's okay to not know things and approach it with an open mind.

Again like the strongest developers I've ever seen are the most quick to say I don't know but also like let's go check it out.

You know right?

Like somebody who again acts all braggy which is pretty rare in Django but it still happens in some communities um it's just such an obvious insecurity I can say and see now right but when you're younger you're like oh my God like you know it's scary.

But it shouldn't be that's not the attitude of a pro.

Like, let's try it out.

Like when I ask, can we, oh, I don't know, let's see.

And it's just so refreshing, like, okay, but won't that break the code?

Like they're like, we could fix, they're like, we can fix it if it breaks.

It's just cold.

And they say that it's just cold.

And then like, I would have never thought that way.

So it's so refreshing to be, you know, to see um professionals, especially professionals further on in their career, who are, you know, they're doing big things.

They to work aside, work side by side with them, and they're they have that attitude.

It's amazing because I don't know how many times it's like, let's see.

Let's let's let's try to let's let's see what Stack Overflow, or let's Google, or now, you know, let's um let's see what the LLMs say.

A lot of times the LLMs are wrong, but but it it's always always, it's always yeah, it's always fun.

Like we, it's so many side quests.

Like you if you're working with like I'll pair with another um developer, and then we we laugh at the responses that we get, like, like or the the solutions is like what like Colin will be like he'll put something in in and slack and be like, or even Tobias, this is what I got, and and we laugh at it.

It's like what?

What what's happening?

But you know, it it is what it is.

AI, I guess it's the what ape of the future.

I don't know.

Um, I I will say that um I think back when Tobias and I did Django Europe, DjangoCon Europe, um co-pilot was all the the rage for peer programming.

And I wasn't impressed, he wasn't impressed because, you know, I I I my assessment was it's okay if you are um if you know how to code, you know, if you know if if you know how to, you know the syntax, you know the languages, it's it's okay.

It's it that's what it's used for to pair program to help you.

But it I feel like it was being marketed in the beginning, marketed to, oh, okay, you know what, you don't really have to know anything, boom, vibe coding.

I I believe it was the beginning of vibe coding, and I had mentioned to Sebias, I don't think it's a good idea for junior folks or folks, uh it it maybe a senior, yes.

Um fast forward, like we do use some AI tools, more so I think um the the notebooks we like.

We like um, yeah, the Gemini notebooks for research.

And for PM work, I'm not gonna lie, I like to use anything that um helps helps me to work more effectively and a little to reduce my busy work.

So I might um I might use the polish my emails or um some of the things like okay if if I decide that I want to create a newsletter or or some type of marketing thing and I'm not the best in Canva or those types of software, I like I'll pop into their AI, you know, their agent and see if I can get some nuggets to help out where I

have, you know, where I have some gaps in in knowledge using it that way.

But the whole, oh, you can just, you don't, you could just, oh, I I I'm one day I'm gonna just pick up and my computer and I'm going to create an app and I don't know anything about coding.

I'm gonna vibe code an app.

No.

And then I'm not some of the things we found yesterday.

We found um some something that was a little strange.

We we think it's an AI, uh AI made website kind of mirroring cactus.

So we were doing some research and we found this website, and we're like, what is this?

And it looks like you know, it could have been created by AI.

None of the folks on the website were real.

We don't think we looked it up.

And it was just really like we it just it's it's just you know, um trying to research and and looking through stuff, a different AI models, and and it's just it's weird to me.

I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not poo-pooing AI, but um I personally where I am more passionate in AI about is just the um the bias, the bias in AI.

So what I'm no noticing more, so you know, in the the greater scheme of things is it's easier to um be very biased, uh politically correct, but I want to say, you know, racist, discriminatory, um just um perpetuating stereotypes through AI.

That to me is what I've been more focused on lately and noticing, and that concerns me.

Because what how how do we fix it?

It's hard enough to get humans to come to the table and be and recognize okay, I do have some bias.

I do, you know, it's hard enough for that, but how how are we gonna go up against these computers now too?

It that that's the thing.

I won't say it's keeping me up at night, but it's definitely on my mind.

Yes.

I mean, early days of Google, I was just reading something about AI and uh something else talking about bias, and um this won't shock you, but it shocked me that for the longest time, if you typed in black women into Google, the top result was not what it should have been.

Because you know, so yeah, it's the combination of the data itself, and then clearly there was no one at Google in a position of authority who was looking at that or cared about it.

And so I guess it's the yeah.

The philosopher would say humans are all the same, Carlton, right?

It's just things are amplified in different ways.

The average machine will spout back what it was trained on, and yeah, it's it's a it is concerning.

Um, I don't you know, and of course, yeah.

I mean, and I say that not totally joking.

I mean, Carlton and I had this, right?

We had this side comment where yeah, it was your your son, right?

We're talking sharing Reddit.

In a paper.

Everything else is unreliable.

It doesn't seem so bad compared to like, you know, we don't need to go in that direction, but I'm not

I'm sorry, I'm a Reddit program.

So Yeah.

We should

Because I attended, I attended and it was a great experience, but I can only imagine how much learning there was, how much work it was.

Um, and you've written a blog post, we'll link to right the first in a three-part series on um Behind the Curtain.

So I'll just mention those.

There's a link to that.

So after the first I I attended Django Con um Durham both years, and I was all I was an organizer.

And I think that I um just as a hee hee hee funny, I should submit a quote to bring a proposal to bring J GoCon to Chicago.

And so Peter, he's he's like, you should.

And I'm like, really?

Okay, well, maybe I was like, you think I could do it?

He was like, he knew you could do anything.

I'm like, are you just saying that because you want a proposal?

Like, I don't know.

So I started the I took the weekend to mole it over, pulled together a couple of uh other folks and said, Let's do this.

So um I went to work, boots on the ground, getting um a quotes, proposals for hotels, and and who could who could support.

And I think it took me about six weeks to kind of pull something together, submitted the proposal, and um DEFA reached out and they were interested.

And it took another couple of months before I locked it down because the Django community and DEFN, I will say it's a little bit persnickety.

So there were a lot of things to work out, a lot of things to hash out.

And so finally, you know, we signed the contract, and um, I think Tobias and Colin were at lunch with a Peter, and he mentioned, do you think Kenya might want a chair?

You know, and they said, Oh, knowing Kenya, yeah, she they asked if she would, you think she would be a good one?

They were like, absolutely.

He asked, um, and I said, Yeah, I I could do that.

I I think I could do it.

And so um, in the meetings, we started our our our week bi-weekly, then it turns to weekly um organizing meetings, and I learned a lot.

I learned a lot.

It it it's it's

I mean,

We want folks to feel included.

We want folks to feel heard.

So, you know, it's not just your average kind of conference, it's that human, that empathetic, the empathy element at Django Con.

So that that was the one thing that I was like, I I have to make sure that that is not, you know, ignored during, you know, when I was chairing.

That was my whole main thing, that the empathy portion of it.

So um, but it was, yeah, that's how how and then I'm gonna I also be the chair for 2026.

From T Rock Software.

Just I know we we get a little insular here, but I want to give a shout out because Peter did huge amounts of work for the Django cons in Durham.

He is and he is so generous with his his time with um, you know, supporting anything that he can do.

He's a good teacher.

Yeah.

And then yeah, Peter is awesome.

Peter is awesome.

It's it's a it's a lot of work.

Like it, so we will start our I think our um monthly meeting for organizing in about February.

And then, you know, we just start filling each other out.

But then it gets around um, you know, I think June, maybe May, May, June.

It starts, yeah, it starts getting, it starts ramping up and folks start, you know, pulling their hair out.

It's I mean, there's just the financial side of like putting a lot of money down to reserve these places.

And then there's yeah.

The website, the the talks, you know, reviewing.

I mean, that's the least of it, the catering, like

Programming, yeah.

Yeah, yes.

And then all do doing all of that while while still maintaining the the feel of the of the the conference.

You know, people have an expectation when they're coming to DjangoCon, you know, uh uh the folks have been to quite a few, they have that expectation that, you know, this is gonna be a top-tier experience, and you know, you want to make sure that you deliver on that everyone.

I mean, even even compared to a PyCon, and that's not just the size and it's taking nothing away from PyCons, which have tons of volunteers as well.

But yeah, Django Cons are special.

I think it comes through.

I mean, I was Django a DjangoCon, that was the Django Con US in 2018 in San Diego where I met Carlton, that was my first ever tech conference.

Like ever, ever.

Like I had and so I'm totally anchored on that experience, you know?

Um overwhelmingly good, but also I didn't know anyone, you know, like I'd written these books, but I was just like alone and you know, like I didn't know anyone.

I knew no one, right?

And so I remember, you know, at like mealtimes and everything, I was just kind of like, you know, like right.

So that's also ingrained in me when I see people who are who are newer, like, yeah, like I that was exactly me, right?

Like I had no idea about anything, right?

It was and it was so welcoming, you know, and it and it's meant to be, but it can be because the size also is conducive to that.

Whereas, you know, then the next year I went to a PyCon, which was in Cleveland in 2019, and it was like three, four thousand people.

And you couldn't possibly recreate that even if you had all the other elements, right?

It's just too massive.

Um, you can feel it, and this is kind of where it comes from.

So um JangoCon um Durham, I can't remember what year, that was my first ever tech conference.

And it was

2023 was and it was awesome because I it was some my i I thought I would be intimidated.

Like my whole thought process of what a tech conference is, you're thinking, oh, all of these, you know, geniuses, brilliant folks, writers.

Yeah, everybody, like you know, and then one year I got to actually sit on a panel with Carlton.

I was like, imagine that.

Um, but yeah, I was like, um, yeah, it was so I'm spoiled.

I always say that Django kind of spoiled me because since in my career, I have been to other tech conferences.

I won't name names, but they're nothing like nothing at all.

It's a different people, it's a different vibe, it's a different everything.

So it's like, oh, you know, you go to these and then you want to run back to Django Kai.

It's like a warm blanket.

I was like, oh, it's like, oh, that wasn't, yeah, okay, I want to go to Django Kai now.

Yeah, no, yeah, that's exactly

Um it's also people want to go there, right?

It's a it's a huge city, right?

So that's that's

Like what yes

checks a lot of boxes.

But I was told at the end, yeah, it it was successful.

It will it was if you want to measure it success and you know folks come in a small profit or whatever, you know.

But yeah, people like Chicago.

And the thing about it too is I am I born and raised in Chicago.

I and I still live in the house.

Oh, oh, okay.

Like I'm in the north, I'm not not too I'm on the north side, but yeah, I I love Evanston.

Um, but yeah, I am born and raised in Chicago, and I am a I love Chicago.

So basically, like I have to I I had to make sure that folks had what they needed.

Like, you know, they if you need me to create some type of experience in Chicago, I wanted to do it for everybody, literally.

Like the weather in September.

I mean, it was like 70 most days, not a lot of wind, not a lot of cold.

Yes.

Um, it's such a striking city.

I mean, at night, right?

It feels almost like um, I don't know, like Blade Runner or something, right?

Walking along.

Like I have all these photos because there's huge, massive um skyscrapers in the river, and yeah, and then the weather was just perfect.

Like it was which is not always in Chicago, we can say but in the fall it's pretty nice.

But and so I think Peter and or a couple of folks are like, we should do it.

Um they were like, Oh, let's push it out.

Like it will, they they I think it was an October date.

I was like, absolutely not.

We need to stay in this particular time because September's good.

Yeah, September is good.

You didn't August might be too hot.

September is the sweet spot.

You want to, you know, let's not mess around with Mother Nature because uh you she she can be very um moody in Chicago.

Um, I was gonna say last year.

This year.

God, it was only um two months ago, three months ago.

Three months ago.

Are you able to?

I mean, obviously you can't fully recover, but you do get a little bit of uh build up the reserves for the next time.

All right.

Um, I'll be at um my fighting weight, I like to say, when we start again in the beginning of 2026, I'll be good.

It's it energizes me.

I I really the fact that it's Django Khan.

I love the people, I love the community, you know.

Django, obviously, that's where I shine at writing, you know, in in in code and programming and development.

So there's that.

And then to introduce people that I like to my city is amazing.

I like I had I had so many side quests during DjangoCon.

Like what folks I had just met then, they were like, oh, you want to go do this in Chicago?

Sure.

You want to go, you know, like I I felt like, you know, I wanted to be like a personal host to everybody.

And because of the size of DjangoCon, I was able to do that.

So I was very, I felt good to to do that.

Yeah.

Like, oh yeah, like I I've never done that.

Or oh, I haven't done that for years.

Like I should go, you know, it's the same way with um like I'm here in Boston, like I'm technically I'm just outside of Boston.

There's so many things I just wouldn't do because I've done them once, you know, like and someone comes into town, like Carlton came to visit at one point, and I was like, oh yeah, like we can there's like all this cool stuff we could do that I had, yeah, I haven't done in forever either.

But to see it through your eyes, I would totally do it.

Oh yeah, Pete Polkes was like, let's go to the bean.

I'm like, oh, I can't remember the last time I went to the bean.

And we were

what's the bean?

It's it's a huge draw.

And it was so funny because they were like, How do we get to the bean?

Kim was like, I don't know.

I just live here.

I don't know how to get to the bean.

And so, but it's it's a a tourist destination.

Folks want to take photos.

We took up a ton of photos.

Bartek took a ton of beautiful photos there.

But it is

Oh, like Cloud Gate.

Oh, yeah, yeah, the bean.

I um Yeah, where the heck is you know, I didn't make it to that.

I just we'll put a link.

Uh well, I'll have to make it next fall.

And um, because my parents used to, you know, as one does, they you take take the train and they worked right near there, and my mom used to go there during her lunch breaks to like de-stress from her corporate jobs.

So she would just go and stare at the art for like 20 minutes, and that was like her routine.

So I was like, I'm gonna do some of that.

And then I didn't make it.

I'm like, Yeah, yeah, it's right down there, okay.

I'm like, you can go to the art museum.

I mean, Chicago's legit an amazing city, and especially yeah, in September, it shows its best side.

And yes.

Um, I'm gonna try to build in a little more time.

Um, and hopefully I won't give a 45 minute talk.

I'll do a shorter one.

I'm gonna do I have a talk.

But as a but as a host to Chicago, I hope that you Yes, of course.

I'm I I can I can say here, I'm I'm scheming.

So I already have submitted for I think, yeah, just closed for PyCon US Um a talk on uh Python web development, uh modern Python web development.

So I'll touch upon Django, but also Fast API, but more just do kind of a high-level this is what's the same, um, this is what's maybe a little bit different.

Um, because I find that it's so easy to get lost in the specifics of like this pat list, you know, AWS this, Heroku, whatever that, but like 80, 90% of it is the same.

Okay.

And so um I would have anyway, it's a common, constant common question that b beginners have, or people who just like most people, I think most people don't do deployments very often, is the thing, right?

Because if you're in a company, it's like someone set it up and you just do it.

Or if you're a a newcomer, you know, so that it's like it's not done enough to uh warrant the attention that it deserves.

We're just talking about deployment, Carlton.

I'm saying my talk topic for next year is gonna be around deployments, and I think it's a combination of like senior people don't have to touch it because it's already built up from scratch, and then beginners get overwhelmed with the platform differences when most of it is kind of the same.

Anyways, I have opinions, uh, so I'm just gonna put it that's my talk.

I'm thinking the short version, but um unlike unlike this past year where I gave this AI talk, which was super fun to do, but I didn't know really anything about what it was gonna be, and I had like three new repos, and I definitely overdid it a little bit.

So um maybe I could do 45 minutes on a topic I know about, sorta.

I was thinking about doing a talk too, but I was like, well, my can I pull that off with being, you know, the chair and giving a talk because I really do my thought is to do a talk around, you know, the bias in AI.

But I don't know what that looks that I don't know what that looks like, and I don't know if I'll have the energy, the the the stamina to do it.

So I I'm gonna probably ruminate over that during Christmas break, you know.

I might I'm gonna think about it a little more, you know, if I'm gonna do it would be nice to to do a talk.

I mean, one of my colleagues at JetBrains, Michelle Frost, she's on the AI front and she's gives lots of talks, and that's what she's all about is kind of bias and inclusion, exclusion and these things.

I think it's yeah, it's very relevant because a lot of people don't think about it, but as soon as you mention it, they go, Oh yeah.

Um oh yeah, that's a thing, but then oh, this is how that has repercussions that impact everyone regardless of who you are.

Yes.

Like not just.

Yes, that is that should be elevated a little bit in importance.

You know, now I'm not I'm not trying to, you know, divide anything, the races or or anything like that.

It's just I it it needs to be I think folks need to be, yeah, and it and it it needs to be pointed out, needs to be intentional too.

So I like you know, I want it to just folks to kind of just take a pause and look.

Yeah, like I'm not asking, oh no, we gotta get rid of AI, but let's let's let's let's think this through, folks.

You know, it

In the interest of diversity, I'm gonna chair it because it's all women, so they so I'm like, wow, like I can be the diversity person.

Oh my god.

Um but it's but they're they're gonna talk about various topics, and yeah, it's nothing better than people who anyways, another option other than a talk.

But that would be yeah.

Cool.

I know.

Well, my electricity fluctuated, the internet went down, and it it took a while to come back.

And I was like, oh no, maybe it's not coming back, but it did come back.

So, you know, I'm glad you f held the floor while that

We're coming up on time.

Is there we've asked you a lot of questions.

Is there anything you wanted to mention or we should have asked you about?

Um Is there?

So on the Yes.

So the first one was being chair, and then I think this the next one is about being an attendee to chair.

Yes.

Is that right?

Yes.

And so, like I said, it there were qu a a lot of um ideas and and quotes and thoughts and things.

So I'm like, oh, this this blog is turning into a small novel.

I need to pair this now.

Yeah.

So yeah folks need to check out our blogs.

I know that every now and then we get like I might see a post on LinkedIn and somebody is talking about a blog that either a a colleague from Cactus or Tobias or Colin wrote six or seven years ago and they're always so surprised that people are still referring to their blogs from six, seven years or 10 years ago.

They're always so surprised

In fact I'm the only one who's not writing these days of the three of us.

I gotta fix that.

You need to I know

Well it

Like if it's confusing it's poorly explained right

Yay Oh you're making me blush no I'm glad you're enjoying it but it's so true like it really is I think I I think I had the same sentiment to you too well like your books were easily like you know I have my Python books and you know when I was learning how to code and then when I got your first I think it was Django for API I think I bought that first but I was like oh my God I should have got this a year ago because it answered a lot of

No no pun like it looks like Greek to me.

I'm like I don't I don't know so

same time like actually having trust and a voice is more important and valuable than ever you know okay how do you reach people but like you can you can tell if you're trying to do something like you can like I you read Carlton stuff AI is not going to write that even if and I've tried even if I like give it all Carlton's writing and tell it to to write like Carlton like it's not gonna write like Carlton but even if it did I don't trust it and I trust Carlton

yeah yeah the context and the trust still trust lives within humans and right like that's the thing that I you know I hold on to regardless you know there might be some AI that's helping me do my busy work but I mean I that that human connection you can't teach a computer empathy and accountability so I mean yeah not not ever it won't happen.

empathy thing yeah hot teacher

oks.

This is really like a philosophy book.

This is sort of a and I don't want to make this sound boring but it's sort of like a older person just being like why does anything kind of exist and um it's really hard to do justice to how much I loved this book and I've I've well you can't see I've marked up so much stuff.

It's it's a combination of like remembering like how physics and chemistry and biology and math all are just shades of the same thing and he's clearly grappling with just being kind of an older person thinking about mortality.

It's just a beautiful beautiful book of a eminent theoretical physicist just thinking deep thoughts.

And I don't know how he made it interesting I'll be honest but it's so good.

Um it came out a couple years ago I think it's sold okay but I think it Carlton I've been telling you about this book for a while right you have

So the project I'm going to recommend is called Django cron task which is from um Johannes Murat who goes by the name coding Joe you should go to his um you should go to his GitHub he's got several projects Django pictures and S3 file upload which is a nice little widget um he does he maintains the Django select 2 integration but this is like a cron style scheduler for for the new Django tasks framework.

So if you need periodic tasks or scheduled tasks um and you want to use new Django tasks then you've got this um add-on which gives you the scheduled tasks which aren't part of the core package now so um that's that's my project I think that's a really nice so

check out go click through to his um other projects he's a you know been a member of the Django community for a long time and he's got some other really good projects that are really worth checking out so um that but that's my project for the for the week and then for a book I'm gonna recommend this one which is um new from Manning it's um 2025 it's fresh out it's called just use Postgres and um it's about things that I post

's an inspiration.

So I've just reading it I've got to read I've got to learn faster than the LLMs but it talks about you know so it's got a first section on um you know the basic the foundations of um SQL to like things like window expression or common table expressions window expressions recursive queries um etc indexes all those things that perhaps you think you should know and then but then maybe don't but then it goes on to JSON fields full text search extensions using Postgres for generative AI time scene geospatial data

just came out last month

And there's these advanced Postgres features that you've kind of heard of, but you're not a hundred percent sure how you work how they work.

It's a great book.

I really, really, really, you know, recommend you but get it, stick it on your on your desk, flick through it every so often.

But as you've said, buying it is 90% of it, right you don't have

to you don't have to read them.

If folks want to submit a proposal to bring DjangoCon to their city in 2027, 2028, the the um CFP is still open.

Um that would be amazing, you know.

We're still looking for um cities to represent.

So um and

And um also, too, I am going to be at the uh PG Data Conference in 2026.

It's also gonna be in Chicago.

Um it's taken place June 4th through the 5th.

Um proposals, CFPs are open.

Um that's uh something that I am cactus is actually a a sponsor and a sponsor that.

So um uh that's just a project.

Oh yeah.

Is that like the Midwest Postgres?

So if you like data, you know, we like data.

So, you know, that'd be a fun little conference for folks to attend.

All right.

I don't have any, um, I'm not reading anything lately.

Um I know.

Which is weird.

I was like, I need a book, you know.

It's been at least eight, nine months since I I read something.

Um, but I don't know.

You're always reading fiction too.

How do you

Some fantasy novels by a guy called Joe Abercrombie.

Um so he wrote a trilogy called the First Lore trilogy, and this is a the follow-up, this is the second one in the follow-up trilogy whose name I'm sure it has.

But Joe Abercrombie, he's he's

Oh, okay, yeah.

So the the show, but obviously he has a ton of books and stuff.

Like I'm like, and I'm not yeah, he and I love Stephen King.

Like I I I really, really like Stephen King.

And I'm like, maybe I should go back and read some of them, because I've read read so many of his books, but I just finished up the Welcome to Dairy um series.

Oh, it's there's like a there's like a little red balloon that pops up on the screen, which I've never seen before.

On Google, on Google.

It's like, okay.

I was like, yeah.

Yeah, it was a really good um series.

And I I was impressed.

Stephen King doesn't disappoint, but sometimes folks don't don't get his works, like when they they um switch it over to like the big screen or movies.

Like his books are amazing to me.

Like, but they're doing a good job, but welcome to the Ari.

Love it.

I'll go check it out.

Well, we could keep chatting, but I think we're we're we're we're at time now.

Thank you for being a chair, thank you for being part of our community, right?

Because it's I'll say this like Carlton, I but feel like we've we've been waiting for the new wave to come in for a while now.

And you know, you're tip of the spear of this new wave that's bringing new perspective, new energy, like everything.

So it's really wonderful to see.

Thank you for having me.

It's been so much fun chatting with you two.

Um, I love what you do.

I appreciate being included in this this group, um, this this Motley crew.

I like to call it.

I love it.

Um, I I'm always looking out for your works.

Um, I appreciate everything you do.

Thank you so much.

Bye bye.