Transcript: From Bootcamp to Project Manager - Keanya Phelps

Hello, Carlton.

Hello, Will.

And we're very pleased to have Kenya Phelps join us, who is a project manager at Cactus Group,

software engineer, and was chair of DjangoCon US in Chicago this fall. Thank you for taking the time.

So maybe you could tell us, how did you get into coding originally? Because you

didn't study it in undergrad, like the two of us.

No, I didn't.

I mean, we didn't study it either.

Uh, that is where, um, I got into coding. I actually, um, went to

a coding boot camp. So I got into coding by way of coding boot camp. A little backstory. My sister,

Jeanette O'Brien, she went through, um, momentum coding boot camp, which was located in, um,

Raleigh, North Carolina. She went through that and, um, loved it and became an instructor. So,

um, it was impersonal. Like every time I had a tech question or

anything, I would always reach out to my baby sister, Jeanette. And one day, you know, one day

she's like, you know, you could do this boot camp. Like, I'm like, no, I couldn't. I, it took me three

years to learn how to turn my computer on. And I'm definitely afraid of Mac Pro Books. So, um, no.

And she's like, no, you can do this. I guess. And it was more so she felt like she could teach

anybody anything. So it was more of a challenge for her. And so I,

I applied and lo and behold, I got in and it was like more of a, like a four month intensive type,

you know, uh, 40 to 50 hour a week immersive training. Um, much to my surprise and, and

delightment, if that's a word, I started picking up it up really quickly and, and I loved it.

And so there was an opportunity, um, for some fellowship work at Cactus,

so I interviewed with some folks over there at the end of the program and they decided, okay,

let's try her out, you know, for a few months to see if it works out, you know, starting off as a

junior developer and I'm still here. So apparently it works out. It worked out.

So it worked out. Yeah. I mean, I, I, my, in my previous life, I always, um, gravitated my career

was more so in account management and self-support. So that's probably how, and I, in my mind,

I wanted to be like a technical project manager. I wanted to manage projects. However, I wanted to

have the, the technical, um, you know, prowess, if you will, to, to, to be able to deliver projects.

So that I will say that was in the forefront of my mind during the bootcamp that I just, um,

but I also wanted to actually be a technical project manager. And that's.

the reason that was my career is I love developing relationships and I know it sounds cliche,

but I am a problem solver. It probably doesn't sound cliche to you guys because

you're, you're developers, you, you like complex problems, you like to solve them. So

it's, it is like, seriously, being the oldest of six children, I kind of like, you know, it's like,

I wrangle it. I think it's just in my personality. Um, what, um, the thing that I like most about a

project management side of it is the technical project managers outside of it is that you can,

that I am actually kind of like the, I won't say the middle man of the technical part and then the

client and product. And I like having that context, being able to context switch from,

okay. Yeah. I know it might take us three, three weeks to, um, write this code,

to, okay, you know what, let me corral this particular developer because he's not,

he or she is not really filling this project. Those types of things, it's a challenge,

but I like that. And, you know, one of the things that stood out.

I like a good project manager who, you know, acts as that shield.

to do it. Right. I mean, you probably suspected that before, but can feel it now, right? Like

most developers have no desire to be project managers and are probably not great at it if

they're put into that role. So to be open to it and to enjoy it and to fill in the technical thing

can't speak to clients, but when I put on my project manager hat, I, um, okay, you know,

well, we're going to, let's, let's do this. You know, it's, it's like, you know, I have,

I don't know if you can kind of compare it to Beyonce. She says when she's on stage,

she's Sasha Fierce. Yeah. I've heard this. Yes. Even I've heard this.

So when Kenya puts on her project management hat, she, she's like a Sasha Fierce, you know?

like pop stars do that. Who was I? Sabrina Carpenter has like some name for her,

like alter ego. Cause a few, or maybe it was Tate. I think it was Tate. No, Tate McRae. I

think it's like Tatiana. My daughter's all into her. Cause yeah. So you can be

shy and introverted. I don't know if Beyonce is, but yeah. Adopt different personas depending on

if I was ever in a meeting with Carlton and Will talking tech and, and I would not be, you know,

raising my hand to, you know, can I say this? No, but however, if you had a project that was

kind of on the verge of, um, running over budget or time, then I'm your girl. I'm gonna, I am going

to speak up loud and clear and we're going to get it done. Well, I think, I mean, Carlton's a good

humble, but they're, they're very open about what they do and don't know. I don't see a lot of

bragging in the way that some tech communities, not all do. So I think it's very welcoming to,

you know, hear Carlton, Jacob Kaplan Moss, all these people just say, I don't know, you know,

to, you know, of course they could. And as I've realized, I'm sure you have too, the correct

mindset is, well, I don't know, but of course I could figure it out. Right. Because nobody can

right. That's sort of the, the challenge though, in a way is some, I feel like some domains,

you can kind of have a mental model of what you're doing, but coding is just so fractal that

it's just impossible. It's more like you eventually have a mental map and you're like,

I'm going to dive in and spend the time to learn how to do that thing.

But I don't have to beat myself up because I can't remember anything.

when I was learning, when I was Googling, Oh wait, what is, what is the GIF workflow again for the

wrote because I phrased it, you know, just like that. And I'm God like, Oh man, like, you know,

five years ago, me was, he had something going on. And it's so weird that you say that Will,

I think it was at PyCon when I first met you, I was carrying your book around.

Well, I wrote the book, the first edition.

Yeah. Professionals. Yeah. Because I was at, was it, it was PyCon, I think last year. And I was,

I was actually doing some work too. And you, a couple of chapters were helping,

it helped me to figure some things out. And it was just so funny that you were at

the, the, um, that the stud, I think, I forget what, what sponsor it was, or you were at the booth

and somebody was like, he called you Wilvins. And I was like, say Wilvins. I was like, I have your

book. And it just speaks to the accessibility to, of the Django community, because here it is,

I'm in some office, home office in Chicago, you know, um, fighting for my life, trying to figure

this, this code out, referencing your book.

And then three months later, I'm at a PyCon and you are the person who wrote the book and I have

your book in there. It's just, it, you can't make this up. I was like, oh my God. And I have never

a talk on APIs and Carlton was in the audience. And, you know, to me, he was like Django fellow,

Django was framework co-maintainer and came up to me after the talk, said some nice things,

you know, gently corrected one or two things I said wrong. And, well, no, you did. I, I, I mean,

you know, I think it was more syntactical than anyways, did it in a very kind way. Right. And

so, yeah, I think, you know, so that's the model I have of like, people are accessible, but also

remembering, like I was, I was the same way. I mean, I, I learned how to code as an adult.

I didn't have a bootcamp. It was literally me in a room for two years, um, pre LLM getting scared to

stack overflow and get lit up, you know? So, um, yeah, I've sort of carried that anyway. So I was

just, you know, you telling your story, I think, um, it's hard for, unless you've done it, it's

hard to realize it takes a lot of courage to, to do a bootcamp, to put yourself in a beginner position

as an adult, right. When you're running projects and all of a sudden, you know, interviewing people

and now you're interviewing for a individual contributor role, it takes, you know, it's, I

it's a, yeah, it changes your perspective, right. To do that as an adult. A lot of people, I think

rightfully go, Ooh, I don't want, I don't want to put myself in that position because it's

and, you know, from, you know, I would say prior, prior career life to now, and I kinda, you know,

how, how other folks get to from point A to point B. And I, I, I really do feel, um, lucky, blessed

because the folks that I've met along the way have been so generous, so just engaging, interesting,

um, friendly, a joy to be around. And I just, I want that for everybody and not just in coding

and learning how to program and technical, just period, like in the world.

Like if you have to work, you know, because we, who wants to work, but if you have to,

you know, why not have it be this type of environment and that, and I've, I've also,

cause I've heard horror stories and I'm like, Oh my God, I just think about if that had been me,

I, I don't think I could have continued. So I really feel the need, a strong need to pay

for it because, you know, it has been a joy and I know it's not always the case for everyone,

so whatever little thing that I could do in my little corner of the internet, I am trying

to do that, whatever I can do to, to pay it forward and help the next, you know, um,

Django Knot, Techie, whatever you want to call it, you know, a person who is changing careers

later in life, you know, minorities who don't think, who don't feel seen or underrepresented

people who are, who don't feel seen, whatever I can do.

Because you're right. I have that perspective and it's just, yeah, something. It's huge.

cause I really thought that, okay, you know, they had an onboarding program and I thought, you know,

I'm going to learn a lot and then I'm going to be thrown to the wolves to try to find a job. But

there were so many folks that, um, took the time to pair program, um, show me the ropes, just,

just be human. I guess it is like, I hate when the bar is that low, but, but they are beautiful.

They, beautiful folks like Tobias, the, the, the founders, Tobias and Colin, they are so,

so accessible. They are so much fun to work with. In my experience, I don't know if folks are out

there that don't, that don't have that experience, that, um, experience with them, but it's a fun

place to work. It was a nice place to land. Like I said, very blessed. And I just assumed that it

would be a fellowship, but I'm here. That was in 2022. I'm still here. Um, and we're still doing

it. It's still liking my job, still loving the, I was going to say, I was going to say,

go into the office, but no, we don't have to go into the office. We do, we do two or three times

a year. We have a nice office though. I mean, I think we, yeah, the sprints, the sprints for

Like I'll be in Durham probably January or early February for a week. And we, um, I do feel,

like I've had remote jobs before, even before programming. And I feel more connected to the

people, the folks that I work for or work with, I'm sorry, at Cactus, even more so than folks that

I work with into the office every day. Like there's a, there's something there, like we,

we feel connected. So.

I mean, you know,

getting together every so often is an obvious one, but are there, you know, in the day to day,

we try to not overthink and, um, with our meetings and standups and, and, um, ceremonies

and stuff like that there, we try to make it meaningful. So a lot of times we have,

um, specific meetings for specific things. And I think the culture has been, since I've been here,

has been open and honest. So I don't really feel like folks are afraid to speak up and,

you know, have conversations where I just feel like when you have honest conversations,

um, that it fosters, it just fosters a deeper connection. So it's not just a lot, a ton of

surface conversations. Like, you know, we are definitely digging into, because it's a smaller

team now. So we have to, I always say we have to stay efficient because we don't have a lot of,

um, you know, uh, human resources. We don't have a lot of, you know, human resources. We don't

have a lot of, you know, human resources. We don't have a lot of, you know, human resources. We don't

have a lot of, you know, human resources. We don't have a lot of, you know, human resources. So to speak,

we have a lot, tons of tech software, whatever, but the people, we have to make sure that we

nurture the folks, the people, because that's what's making this train stay on the track

in my, in my opinion. So yeah, there's expensive thing that makes it work.

Absolutely. So I think that, you know, we try to check in with each, each other. Um, I can

sense when folks are, um, overwhelmed or, you know, might need

little something like that's just that instinct that I have. Not patting myself on the back. It's

just that I have that. Not everyone has it in tech. Yeah. I can say that with love.

And I think too, because, you know, we have some, quite a few seniors on the team now.

So I think sometimes they get bogged down and because they're so brilliant and I'm like,

you know, come on, let's step back now. Let's, you know, let's see the forest and not get lost

in the trees. Yes. So it happens. So, so that is a way that we try to stay connected, but definitely

we, when we have our in-office events, we, we come in the, we're in the office that week

working with each other. It's always funny. The first day it's like so quiet. You can hear

a mouth, a pin drop. And it's like, I, when I work, if, if I'm writing code, I have to have

my house music on and I have to have background. And then I always talk to my dog. Like Graham is

my coworker. So it's so weird that when I'm in the office, because it's so, it's just a different

environment. Yeah. I'm like, okay, can I turn this music on or is it going to bother someone?

happens. Yeah. Oh no. Social graces. What are these? I mean, I, I, for, for a long time, I would,

my wife could tell if I'd been like stuck on something for a while. Cause I would have like,

like coding hair. Cause I would sit there just like this. And so I'd come out with like this

wall of hair and she's like, oh, you've been like, you know, stuck on something for a while.

I was like, oh,

I guess I have a tell the wall haircut, the folks who are in our lives, you know, like

out because I, every, every little thing, even to this day, like if I'm running cold, if I,

if I grab a couple of tickets, because you know, I still, I always tell, I think I've told Tobias

or Colin before, like, I am still going to pick up some low hanging fruit.

Tickets because I didn't stress myself out for two years, learning how to code, not to code again.

So I'm always like, you know, so whenever I, I, you know, I'm figuring something out and he hears,

yes, he'll be like, oh, she wants to figure something out, you know?

I guess kind of managing, I was working in tech, but I was

managing a team doing operations and business stuff. And so you don't, you don't get like the

head of fixing a PR or fixing something and making it work. Right. Whereas learning how to code. Yeah.

There's long periods of frustration, but like, you do get that, like, oh yeah, like I, I did

something, you know? And I mean, you're doing something when you're managing a team, obviously,

but it's a different kind of thing. It's a, it's less of a spike of, you know, oh, done onto the

next, right. It's more of like, yeah. Oh yeah. You know, keeping everyone happy. Um, so anyways,

that was really a nice feeling having come from a couple of years of,

managing to then, yeah, just like, oh, I did this. Like I got that. And, um, yeah, it's,

I just saying that cause you, I'm sure you could relate to that feeling too. That was one of the

things that was sort of surprising. And I think that people who come from maybe an engineering

background and then promoted into management, they go, oh my God, like I don't feel good.

Cause I don't get that feeling of completion, um, that I had right when I was rolling my

weeks ago and during stand up, I was asking for, um, someone to review my PR and, um, I think it

was Colin. He just right in the standup, he went to it. I was like, um, excuse me, don't look at my

code in front of everybody.

And then he, he was like, oh no, it looks good. And I was like, oh my God, thank God. I mean,

but that was the first time he'd ever did that. He was like, why are you, it's fine. But those

types of things, because, you know, it's like, you know, no, I just want you to look at it. Don't

share it until like, no, but it was funny because that actually happened. I think it was, yeah,

quickly, um, review my PR right. And in our standup, I was like, oh, I had to clutch my pearls. I was

for me with cactus, because, you know, I'm never felt, um, you know, I, every now and then I do,

I still have imposter syndrome, but one of the things that, uh, that helps me, I have to say is

the place that I work. Um, Tobias and Colin have both share with me that, oh, I love working with

you, Katie, because you are, it's a new, you know, you have a new, you bring newer ways

looking at things and, you know, they remember when they were learning, like you said, what you

remember and yeah. So yeah, exactly. So,

when we did, um, DjangoCon Europe, Tobias and I, um, we did something about, uh, we did a talk on

pair programming. And at the time I was pair programming with the founder of the company and

I was still kind of junior, but it worked for us. He's my favorite person to pair program. Like I,

some people are like, really? Like he's a senior engineer. I mean, you know, Tobias, you know,

to pair program with, because I learned so much. It's fun because it's always something like,

you know, if we're doing a live share or we're working and I'll ask a question and Colin was

good with this. Like, I, I'd be like, well, do you think, you know, X, Y, Z, which is it? He was

like, well, I don't know. Let's try it out. And I'm like, really? We could do that.

right? I mean, cause I mean,

uh, Carlton, I both have, you know, even I have mentored people, which is weird to say there's

the imposter syndrome, you know? And it's, it's like, they're kind of like, oh my God,

like you're doing something with me. I'm like, no, like you, you have interesting ideas. Like,

honestly, like, and it's one person in particular, I mentored for a while and

eventually we kind of stopped. Cause it got to the point where I was like, I don't know,

like you're asking good questions. We're just going to both go, you know, she'd gotten to the,

she'd gotten the reps to, you know, kind of approach it like a senior person, which is to say,

okay, I have this tapestry of,

kind of understanding, but yeah, I don't, you know, it's, you just get better at figuring

stuff out. It's not that you know how to do a particular thing. Um, or, you know, again,

the questions like it's, it's, I still find it so interesting when people write good, you know,

ask good questions, right. You know, or ask any question, right. If it comes from a place of like,

they're, they're curious and they don't quite get it, you know, maybe it's something I've

heard before, but sometimes it's, it's a new angle on something. And I have to reconsider,

oh, maybe, maybe I could explain that thing better. Or maybe, maybe they have a real

insight. Like, why do we, why do people do it that way? It's like, oh, I just sort of,

it's ingrained that we just do it that way, but maybe there is a better way to do it.

Um, so I guess I would just say in pair programming situations, the senior person

gets something out of it too. If you're the junior person, like, don't think they're just

doing it for you. They're definitely getting something from it too.

Thank you so much for having me.

I think that like this exact, this phenomenon, I think is just what it is to be programming,

right? You come to any problem. It's like, how are you going to solve it? Well, okay. You might

know that, you know, if you've done it, if that kind of problem, you might know, well, we're going

to use this, we're going to use that, but the actual details of it, every single time you're

working it out. And that's, that's the fun of it. So it's not like, you know, it's not like,

you know, you're, I'm, I'm working with a junior, the junior doesn't know. And I do,

it's like, we've got to discover the solution together.

point I've tried to get across to people is like, this is what it feels like, you know,

because when I was learning, I was like, I wonder what it feels like to be Carlton Gibson,

you know, like, or, you know, and it's in a sense, it's that feeling of like, okay,

I have some understanding, but I don't know, like, I'm just constantly,

learning stuff and learning that it's okay to not know things and approach it with an open mind.

Again, like the strongest developers I've ever seen are the most quick to say, I don't know,

but also like, let's go check it out. You know, right. Like somebody who, again, acts all braggy,

which is pretty rare in Django, but it still happens in some communities. It's just such an

obvious insecurity I can say and see now. Right. But when you're younger, you're like, oh my God,

you know, it's scary, but it shouldn't be. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's not the attitude of a pro.

is like, I don't know, let's do this. Like, let's try it out. Like when I asked him, we, oh,

I don't know. Let's see. And it's just so refreshing. Like, okay, but won't that break

the code? Like, they're like, we can fix, they're like, we can fix it if it breaks. It's just cold.

And they say that it's just cold. And they're like, I would have never,

thought that way. So it's so refreshing to be, you know, to see, um, professionals,

especially professionals further on in their career who are, you know, they're doing big

things they, to, to, to work aside, work side by side with them. And they're, they have that

attitude. It's amazing because I don't know how many times it's like, let's see, let's, let's,

let's try to, let's, let's see what Stack Overflow or let's Google, or now, you know, let's, um,

let's see what the LLMs say. A lot of times the LLMs are wrong, but,

but it's always, it's always, it's always, yeah, it's always fun. Like we, it's so many side quests,

like you, if you're working with, like I'll pair with another, um, developer and then we,

we laugh at the responses that we get, like, like,

or the, the solutions is like, what, like Colin will be like, he'll put something in, in, in Slack

and be like, or even Tobias, this is what I got. And, and we laugh at it. It's like, what,

what, what's happening? But you know, it, it, it is what it is. AI, I guess it's the wave of the

AI and I didn't bring it up for a change, but I'm just curious what, what is, what is kind of the work

flow that I guess Cactus or you are seeing? Like, is, is there one to the extent that you use AI and

LLMs? Have you, have you all narrowed down on a tool set, a flow at all?

Tobias and I did Django Europe, DjangoCon Europe, um, co-pilot was all the, the rage for,

for pair programming. And I wasn't impressed. He wasn't impressed because, you know, I, I,

my assessment was, it's okay if you are, um, if you know how to code, you know, if you know,

if, if, if you know how to, you know, the syntax, you know, the languages, it's, it's okay. It's,

it, that's what it's used for to pair program to help you. But it, I feel like it was being

marketed in the beginning, marketed to, oh, okay, you know what? You don't really have to know

anything. Boom, vibe coding. I believe it was the beginning of vibe coding. And I had mentioned to

Tobias, I don't think it's a good idea for junior folks or folks, maybe a senior. Yes. Um, fast

forward, like we do use some AI tools more. So I think, um, the, the notebooks we like, we like, um,

yeah, the Gemini notebooks for research and for PM work. I'm not going to lie. I like to use

anything that, um, helps, helps me to work more effectively and a little to reduce my busy work.

So I might, um, I might use the polish my emails or, um, some of the things like, okay, if,

if I decide that I want to create a newsletter,

or some type of marketing thing, and I'm not the best in Canva or those types of software I liked,

I'll pop into their AI, you know, their agent and see if I can get some nuggets to help out

where I have, you know, where I have some gaps in, in knowledge using it that way. But the whole,

oh, you can just, you don't, you could just, oh, I I'm one day I'm going to just pick up and,

my computer and I'm going to create an app. And I don't know anything about coding. I'm going to

vibe code an app. No. And then I'm not, some of the things we found yesterday, we found, um,

some, something that was a little strange. We, we think it's an AI, an AI made website

kind of mirroring cactus. So we were doing some research and we found this website and we're like,

what is this? And it looks like, you know, it could have been created by AI. None of the folks

on the website were real. We don't think we looked it up. And it was just really like, we just,

just, you know, um, trying to research and, and looking through stuff, a different AI models. And

it's weird to me. I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not poo-pooing AI, but, um, I personally,

where I am more passionate in AI about is just the, um, the bias, the bias in AI. So

what I'm noticing more so, you know, in the, the greater scheme of things is it's,

it's easier to, um, be very biased, politically correct, but I want to say, you know, racist,

discriminatory, um, just, um, perpetuating stereotypes through AI. That to me is what I've

been more focused on lately and noticing. And that concerns me because

how, how do we fix it? It's hard enough to get humans to come to the table and be, and recognize,

okay, I do have some bias. I do, you know, it's hard enough for that, but how, how are we going

to go up against these computers now too? It, that, that's the thing. I won't say it's keeping

me up at night, but it's definitely on my mind. Yes. Well, and it's the same thing. I mean,

I was reading something about AI and something else talking about bias and, um, this won't shock

you, but it shocked me that for the longest time, if you typed in black women into Google,

the top result was not what it should have been because, you know, so yeah, it's the

combination of the data itself. And then clearly there was no way that Google in a position of

authority who was looking at that or cared about it. And so I guess.

it's still yeah the philosopher would say humans are all the same carlton right it's just things

crawl around the entire corpus of the internet it's pretty racist it's pretty sexist it's pretty

discriminatory it's pretty you know full of nut job beliefs and well no wonder they come out from

the average machine right the average machine will spout back what it was trained on and yeah

it's it's a it is concerning um i don't you know and of course yeah well in these days reddit is

had this side comment where yeah it was your your son right we were sharing reddit my son was

the only thing that's reliable everything else is unreliable and i gotta say the more i'm

york times the washington post like oh not to mention i mean i'm like well at least i don't

know it's not so bad it doesn't seem so bad compared to like you know we don't even go in

um to be solo chair i mean that's um how did you get roped into doing it because i attended

i attended and it was a great experience but i can only imagine how much learning there was

how much work it was um and you've written a blog post we'll link to right the first in a

three-part series on yes behind the curtain so i'll just mention those there's a link to that

um durham both years and yeah i was all i was an organizer and i think that i um just

as a he he funny i should submit a quote to bring a proposal to bring django con to chicago

and so peter he he's like you should and i'm like really okay well maybe i was like you think i

could do it he was like kina you could do anything i'm like are you just saying that because you want

a proposal like so i started i took the weekend a mullet over pulled together a couple of other

folks and said let's do this so um i went to work boots on the ground getting um quotes proposals

for hotels and and who gets who could support and i think it took me about six weeks to kind of pull

something together submitted the proposal and um defna reached out and they were interested and

it took another couple of months before i locked it down because the django community and defna i

will say it's a little bit persnickety so there are a lot of things to work out a lot of things

to hash out and so finally you know we signed the contract and um i was like okay i'm gonna do this

um i think tobias and colin were at lunch with peter and he mentioned do you think kenya might

want a chair you know and they said oh knowing kenya yeah she they asked if she would you think

she would be a good one they were like absolutely he asked um and i said yeah i i could do that i

think i could do it and so um in the meetings we started our our our week bi-weekly then it turns

to weekly um organizing meetings and i learned that i could do that i could do that and so i

learned a lot i learned a lot it it is it's well it's project management in a way right i mean it

is 100 project management and um with a what's such a human element to it because of the nature

of django con and how you know we are um crafting experiences we want folks to feel

included we want folks to feel heard so you know it's not just you

average kind of conference it's that human that empathetic the empathy element at django con so

that that was the one thing and i was like i i have to make sure that that is not you know

ignored during you know when i was sharing that was my whole main thing that the empathy portion

of it so um but it was yeah that's how how and then i'm gonna also be the chair for 2020 so

grandstaff right from yes um yes rock software just i know we get a little insular here but i

want to give a shout out because peter did huge amounts of work for the django cons in

anything that he can do he's a good teacher yeah and then yeah peter is awesome

peter is awesome it's it's a it's a lot of work like it so we will start our i think our um

monthly meeting for organizing in about february and then you know we just start filling each other

out but then it gets around um you know i think june maybe may may june it start yeah it starts

getting it starts ramping up and folks start you know pulling their hair out because it's so many

like putting a lot of money down to reserve these places and then there's the website the the talks

you know reviewing i mean that's the least of it the catering like the programming yes program yeah

conference you know people have an expectation when they're coming to django con you know the

been to quite a few they have that expectation that you know this is going to be a top tier

experience and you know you want to make sure that you deliver on that every you can feel it

taking nothing away from pycons which have tons of volunteers as well but yeah django cons are

special i think it comes through i mean i was django a django con that was

the django con us in 2018 in san diego where i met carlton that was my first ever tech conference

like ever ever like i had and so i'm totally anchored on that experience you know um overwhelmingly

good but also i didn't know anyone you know like i'd written these books but i was just like

alone and you know like i didn't know anyone i knew no one right and so i remember you know like

meal times and everything i was just kind of like you know like right so that's also ingrained in me

when i see people who are who are newer like yeah like i that was exactly me right like i had no idea

about anything right and it was so welcoming you know and it's meant to be but it can be because

the size also is conducive to that whereas you know then the next year i went to a pycon which

was in cleveland in 2019 and it was like three four thousand people and you couldn't possibly

recreate that even if you had all the other elements right and so i was like i'm gonna

it's just too massive um so yeah i agree people haven't been to one you can feel it and this is

durham i can't remember what year that was my first ever tech conference and it was probably

yeah it was 2023 2023 was and it was awesome because i it was some

my i thought i would be intimidated like my whole thought process of what a tech conference is

you're thinking oh all of these you know geniuses brilliant folks all these carltons yeah everybody

like you know and then one year i got to actually sit on a panel with carlton i was like imagine that

um but yeah i was like um yeah it was so i'm spoiled i always say that jangle kind of spoiled

me because since in my career i have been to other

tech conferences i won't name names but they're nothing like nothing at all it's a different

people it's a different vibe it's a different everything so it's like oh you know you go to

these and then you want to run back to jangle because it's like a warm blanket i was like oh

it's like uh that was it yeah okay i want to go to jangle kai now

chicago is kind of perfect

placed in that it's international airport it's not quite as expensive as you know boston new york

san francisco um it's also people want to go there right it's a it's a huge city right so that's what

we heard like yes checks a lot of boxes i well you would know i think more people despite everything

the climate the um political climate that we would see um

see it drop that we would see participation drop um for visas and stuff like that but i was told

at the end yeah it was successful it was if you want to measure success and you know folks come

in a small profit or whatever you know but yeah people like chicago and the thing about it too is

i am i born and raised in chicago i and i still was born there too oh oh okay evanston evanston

not too i'm on the north side but yeah i love evanston um but yeah i am born raised chicago

and i am a i love chicago so basically like i have to i had to make sure that folks had what they

needed like you know they if you need me to create some type of experience in chicago i wanted to do

mean it was like 70 most days yes not a lot of wind not a lot of cold yes um it's such a striking

city i mean at night right it feels almost like um i don't know like blade runner or something

right walking along like i have all these photos because it's huge

massive um skyscrapers in the river and yeah and then the weather was just perfect like it was

which is not always in chicago we can say oh no it is but in the fall it's pretty nice

like we should do it um they were like oh let's push it out like it they they i think it was

an october date i was like absolutely not we need to stay in this particular time because september's

good yeah

september is good you know august might be too hot september is the sweet spot you want to you

know let's not mess around with mother nature because she she can be very um moody in chicago

god it was only um two months ago three months ago feels like yeah it doesn't it seems like last

fully recover but you do get a little bit of uh build up the reserves for the next time

physically to kind of like okay i'm back all right so i'm good um i'll be at um my fighting weight i

like to say when we start again in the beginning of 2026 i'll be good it's it energizes me i i really

the fact that it's jangle con i love the people i love the community you know jangle obviously

that's where i shine at writing you know in in code and programming and development so there's

that and then to introduce people that i like to my city is amazing i like i had i had so many side

quests during jangle con like folks i just met then they were like oh you want to go do this in

chicago sure you want to go you know like i i felt like you know i wanted to be like a personal host

to everybody and because of the size of jangle con i was able to do that so i was very i felt

see it through their eyes are you like oh yeah like you're like oh yeah you're like oh yeah you're

like oh yeah like i i've never done that or yeah oh i haven't done that for years like i should go

you know it's the same way with um like i'm here in boston like i'm technically i'm just outside

of boston there's so many things i just wouldn't do because i've done them one you know like and

someone comes into town like carlton came to visit at one point i was like oh you know like we can

there's like all this cool stuff we could do that i had yeah i haven't done in forever either but

bean i'm like oh i can't remember i've never done that before i've never done that before i've never

the last time i went to the bean and we were what's the bean the the bean it's like the big

bean that it's a landmark or i hadn't been it's it's a huge draw and it was so funny because

they were like how do we get to the bean can i was like i don't know i just live here

i don't know how to get to the bean and so but it's it's a tourist destination

folks want to take photos we took up a ton of photos bartek took a ton of beautiful photos

yeah where the heck is you know i didn't make it to that i just we'll put a link

and then i just didn't make it and um because my parents used to you know as one does they

to take take the train and then i just didn't make it and then i just didn't make it and then i just

worked right near there and my mom used to go there during her lunch breaks to like

de-stress from her corporate job so she would just go and stare at the art for like 20 minutes and

that was like her routine so i was like i'm gonna do some of that and then i didn't make it see i

uh ferris bueller i'm like yeah it's right down there okay like you can go to the art museum

legit an amazing city and especially in september it shows its best side and yes i'm going to try to

build in a little more time i hope you do because i um it's sort of in and out um and hopefully i

won't give a 45 minute talk i'll do a shorter one i mean hopefully you i'll do a talk i'm gonna do i

i hope that you yes of course well we'll see

closed for pycon us um oh yeah uh a talk on uh python web development uh modern python web

development so i want to touch upon django but also fast api but more just do kind of a high

level this is what's the same um this is what's maybe a little bit different um because i find

it's so easy to get lost in the specifics of like this pet list you know aws this heroku whatever

that but like aws this is what's the same thing that's what's the same thing that's what's the

80 90 of it is the same okay and so um i would have anyway it's a common constant common question

that beginners have or people who just like most people i think most people don't do deployments

very often is the thing right because if you're in a company it's like someone set it up and you

just do it or if you're a newcomer you know so it's like it's not done enough to uh warrant the

attention that it deserves we're just talking about deployment carlton i'm saying my talk top

for next year's can be around deployments and i think it's a combination of like senior people

don't have to touch it because it's already built up from scratch and then beginners get overwhelmed

with the platform differences when most of it is kind of the same anyways i have opinions uh so i'm

just gonna put that's my talk oh well that sounds very interesting the shorter the shorter the long

version i'm thinking the short version but um unlike unlike this past year i gave this ai talk

which was super fun to do but i didn't know i didn't know i didn't know i didn't know i didn't

really anything about what it was going to be.

And I had like three new repos.

And I definitely overdid it a little bit. So maybe I was 45 minutes on a topic I know about, sort of.

Because I really do. My thought is to do a talk around, you know, the bias and AI.

But I don't know what that looks like. And I don't know if I'll have the energy, the stamina to do it.

So I'm going to probably ruminate over that during Christmas break.

You know, I might I'm going to think about it a little more, you know, if I'm going to do it would be nice to to do it.

And that's what she's.

All about is kind of bias and inclusion, exclusion and these things.

I think it's yeah, it's very relevant because a lot of people don't think about it.

But as soon as you mention it, they go, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a thing.

But then, oh, this is how that has repercussions that impact everyone, regardless of who you are.

Yes, that's important.

So either you're living with it every day and you're like, yeah, or even if you're not, you're like, oh, huh?

Yeah.

Yes.

That should be elevated a little bit in importance.

Yes.

It's just it needs to be.

I think.

And it needs to be pointed out and needs to be intentional, too.

So, like, you know, I wanted to just folks to kind of just take a pause and look like I'm not asking, oh, no, we got to get rid of AI.

But let's let's let's let's think this through, folks.

Oh, yeah.

That's a good good idea.

I mean, a panel of people who could speak.

Yeah.

Just throwing ideas out there.

There's gonna be a pie ladies panel.

And this cracks me up in the interest of diversity.

I'm going to share it because it's all women.

So they sound like, wow, like I can be the diversity person.

Oh, my God.

Let's go.

But it's but they're they're going to talk about various topics.

And, yeah, it's nothing better than people who.

It was another option other than a talk.

But that would be.

Yeah.

Cool.

I don't know.

Carlton, we were just discussing things while you took a brief sojourn.

Yeah.

Well, my electricity fluctuated.

The Internet went down and it took a while to come back.

And I was like, oh, no, maybe it's not coming back.

But it did come back.

So, you know, I'm glad you held.

Is there.

We've asked you a lot of questions.

Is there anything you want to mention or we should have asked you about?

So we'll put a link to it.

So on.

Yes.

So.

The first one was being chair.

And then I think the next one is about being an attendee to chair.

Yes.

Is that right?

Mm hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And so, like I said, there were a lot of ideas and and quotes and thoughts and things.

So I'm like, oh, this this blog is turning into a small novel.

I need to hear this now.

Yeah.

And it's on the.

And we should give a shout out on the Cactus blog, which has other authors as well.

And there's a lot of absolutely.

Yes.

Actually, if you if folks are interested, you can see kind of our our.

I don't know what you would call it.

Just how what what we're doing lately.

Our blueprint.

Like, I think Colin is working on some LLMs and he's blogging about that.

And.

Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun.

So, yeah, folks need to check out our blogs.

I know that every now and then we get like I might see a post on LinkedIn and somebody is talking about a blog that either a colleague from Cactus or Tobias or Colin wrote six or seven years ago.

And they're always so surprised that people are still referring to their blogs from six, seven years or 10 years ago.

They're always surprised.

Mm hmm.

You have your own regular writings.

In fact, I'm the only one who's not writing these days.

Yeah.

Of the three of us.

I got to fix that.

You need to get back to it.

You need to.

I know.

Yes.

But I'm enjoying your writings to Carlton, which some are free and some are paid.

So speaking of which, you have one should be coming out, right?

You're due a monthly one to finish the end of the year.

I like your your writings, Carlton.

It makes it just.

I'm like, I understand what this guy is saying, and it makes me feel so good that I understand what you're saying.

Like, if it's confusing, it's poorly explained.

I'm always like, just stoked that I'm like, wait a minute.

I know what he's talking about.

Yay.

I'm glad you enjoy it.

Like, it really is.

I think I had the same sentiment to you, too.

Well, like your books were easy.

Like, you know, I have my Python books.

And, you know, when I was learning how to code and then when I got your first, I think it was Django for API.

I think I bought that first.

But I was like, oh, my God, I should have got this a year ago because it answered a lot of questions.

So it was like, it's so like, OK, yes, I understand this concept.

I understand the syntax.

So, yes, it's all whenever I'm reading stuff that that is just clear to me.

You have no idea.

It's just so amazing because there's so much stuff out there that that looks like, you know, Greek.

No, no.

It looks like Greek to me.

So if you find a voice that you resonate with.

Right.

It's like, oh, now I can trust this person.

Right.

And that's what I keep like everything I do.

I'm like, if I found this confusing, someone else will.

And maybe I'm not the best person to explain it to him.

But some people will find it interesting.

And same thing.

Right.

Like I read everything Carlton does.

Like you find a person.

And I do think, I mean, among content creators, there's definitely a little bit of an Eeyore.

The sky is falling.

Everything's being commoditized by AI thing.

But I think at the same time, like actually having trust and a voice is more important and valuable than ever.

You know, how do you reach people?

But like you can you can tell if you're trying to do something like you can like you read Carlton stuff.

AI is not going to write that even if and I've tried, even if I like give it all Carlton's writing and tell it to to write like Carlton.

Like it's not going to write like Carlton.

But even if it did, I don't trust it.

And I trust Carlton.

Exactly.

You know, exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And like, that's the thing that I, you know, I hold on to regardless.

You know, there might be some AI that's helping me do my busy work.

But I mean, that that human connection, you can't teach a computer empathy and accountability.

So I mean, yeah, not not ever.

It won't happen.

Not an LLM.

Yeah, a little empathy thing.

Aww.

Yeah.

Wow.

Carlton, is there anything you wanted to add as we wrap up?

I mean, I feel I've missed the bit, the exciting middle bit there.

But no, I think it's been a good chat.

I think I haven't got anything left on my list.

Are we doing a project in a book?

So we didn't mention this at all to you, but we've informally.

Done trying to mention a project in a book.

I don't have a.

Actually, I do have a project.

Well, no, I don't have a project.

I have a book.

And again, apologies.

We didn't even mention this in the notes or anything.

Unless you have one.

I'm going to stump for I'll go first.

This book until the end of time by Brian Green.

I need to buy.

I'm going to.

I'm going to give this to you in March when I see you, Carlton.

Because so Brian Green is this theoretical physicist.

He's written a bunch of other books.

This is really like a philosophy book.

This is sort of a.

And I don't want to make.

This sound boring, but it's sort of like a.

Older person just being like, why does anything kind of exist?

And.

It's really hard to do justice to how much I loved this book.

And I've I've.

Well, you can't see.

I've marked up so much stuff.

It's it's a combination of like remembering like how physics and chemistry and biology and math all are just shades of the same thing.

And he's clearly grappling with just being kind of an older person thinking about mortality.

Oh, it's just a beautiful, beautiful book of a eminent theoretical physicist.

Just thinking deep thoughts.

And I don't know how he made it interesting.

I'll be honest, but it's so good.

That's intriguing.

I mean, he just makes these like offhand.

Just about how chemistry is just, you know, like the periodic table.

It's just like, well, it's just like an extra.

Oh, God, I'm gonna get it wrong.

You know, electron here or there.

And I don't know.

He just has these like there's so much good stuff in the book.

It came out a couple.

Years ago, I think it's sold.

OK, but I think it Carlton, I've been telling you about this book for a while, right?

You have.

When you picked up, I was like, oh, that's the one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you have one?

So, you know, I did the homework.

So the project I'm going to recommend is called Django Cron Task, which is from Johannes Moran, who goes by the name Coding Joe.

You should go to his.

You should go to his GitHub.

He's got several projects.

Django Pictures and S3 File Upload, which is a nice little widget.

He maintains the Django Select 2 integration.

But this is like a Cron style scheduler for the new Django Tasks framework.

So if you need periodic tasks or scheduled tasks and you want to use new Django Tasks, then you've got this add on, which gives you the scheduled tasks, which aren't part of the core package now.

So that's that's my project.

I think that's a really nice.

So Django Cron Tab, you said?

No.

What is it?

No.

Hang on.

Task.

Cron Tasks.

Cron Tasks.

Django Cron Tasks.

OK.

Yeah.

I put it in the chat there for you.

But so check out, go click through to his other projects.

He's, you know, been a member of the Django community for a long time and he's got some other really good projects.

So really worth checking out.

So that's my project for the week.

And then for a book, I'm going to recommend this one, which is new from Manning.

It's 2025.

It's fresh out.

It's called.

Just use Postgres.

And it's about all the things.

Like he actually reads these like soup.

I'm not quite.

It's an inspiration.

I keep getting told I'm going to make.

I'm going to be made unemployed by these LLMs that know more than me.

So I'm sorry.

I've got to read.

I've got to learn faster than the LLMs.

But it talks about, you know, it's got the first section on, you know, the basic, the

foundations of SQL to like things like window expression or comment table expression.

Window expressions, recursive queries, et cetera, indexes, all those things that perhaps you

think you should know, but then maybe don't.

But then it goes on to JSON fields, full text search, extensions, using Postgres for generative

AI, time series.

Can you hold it up one more time?

Geospatial data.

Just use.

Okay.

I just want to.

It's fresh off the press.

It's only been out like, you know, so it's bang up to date.

And it's like, you know, if you're, if you're using Django, then you're almost certainly

using Postgres.

And there's these advanced Postgres features that you've kind of heard of, but you're not

a hundred percent sure how you work, how they work.

It's a great book.

I really, really, really, you know, recommend you get it, stick it on your desk, flick through

it every so often.

I still have some other books you've recommended that I bought that I haven't read, but as

you've said, buying it is 90% of it, right?

You buy them, you look at them, and then occasionally you flick through them when you feel guilty.

Unless you already had something prepared, because we didn't mention this at all to you.

a proposal to bring DjangoCon to their city in 2027, 2028, the CFP is still open.

That would be amazing, you know, that we, you know, we're still looking for cities to

represent.

So that's a thing.

And also, too, I am going to be at the PG Data Conference in 2026.

It's also going to be in Chicago.

It's taking place June 4th through the 5th.

Proposals, CFPs are open.

That's something that I.

And Cactus is actually a sponsor and a sponsor of that.

So that's just a project.

Oh, yeah.

Is that like the Midwest Postgres?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

So, you know, that'd be a fun little conference for folks to attend.

All right.

I think, yeah, I don't have any.

I'm not reading anything.

Lately, I know, which is weird.

I had just talked to my husband, too.

I was like, I need a book.

You know, it's been at least eight, nine months since I read something.

But I don't know.

I can go on then.

How do you.

Well, not terrible.

They're wonderful.

Actually, fantasy novels by a guy called Joe Abercrombie.

So he wrote a trilogy called The First Law Trilogy.

And this is the follow.

This is the second one in the follow up trilogy whose name I'm sure Joe Abercrombie.

It Stephen King.

Oh, yeah.

So the show obviously has a ton of books and stuff like I'm like and I'm not.

I love Stephen King.

Like, I really, really like Stephen King.

And I'm like, maybe I should go back and read someone because I've read so many of his books.

But I just finished up the Welcome to Derry series.

Oh, there's like a there's like a little red balloon that pops up on the screen, which I've never seen before.

I'm Google.

I'm Google.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was like, yeah, I just finished.

It was a really good series.

And I was impressed.

Stephen King doesn't disappoint, but sometimes folks don't don't get his works like when they they switch it over to like the big screen or movies like his books are amazing to me.

Like, but they're doing a good job.

But Welcome to Derry.

Love it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're at time now.

Yes.

Thank you for coming on.

Thank you for.

Thank you for being a chair.

Thank you for being part of our community.

Right.

Because it's I'll say this, like Carlton, I feel like we've we've been waiting for the new wave to come in for a while now.

And, you know, your tip of the spear of this new wave that's bringing new perspective, new energy, like everything.

So it's really wonderful to see.

Thank you for having me.

It's been so much fun chatting with you, too.

I love what you do.

I appreciate being included.

I appreciate being included in this this group, this this motley crew.

I like.

Yeah, very.

I love it.

I love it.

I I'm always looking out for your works.

I appreciate everything you do.

Thank you so much.

So Django chat dot com and on YouTube.

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