Transcript: From Django Girls to the Django Software Foundation - Kátia Nakamura

I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hello, Carlton.

Hello, Will.

Welcome.

Thank you for having me.

So you and I worked together on the Django Software Foundation board for many years, and you're still on the board, so we can talk about that.

Yeah.

But I realize that even though I've worked with you for many years, I didn't I don't really know much about your background other than I know you're originally from Brazil and you live in Berlin now.

But maybe you could talk about how did you get into programming and what brought you from there to I you're still in Berlin?

Is that correct?

I'm still living here.

So studying computer science and then making your way over to Germany.

So before before my uh bachelor in computer science, I actually had a uh technical course before uh before my my bachelor, and it was called like indust industrial informatics or something like that.

That's how I started with programming or anything related to that, to computers.

And this was 2005, and I think that that was my first contact with programming, and I think we didn't even do like any well, definitely anything like web programming or anything like that.

Uh I started like that, and it's funny because I didn't choose that, it was more like okay, this is the list of courses that I can apply for, and what are the ones that I don't want to do?

And then I I ended up like, okay, yeah, I think this informatics, computers, I like computers, I like internet, so let's do it.

So that's how I started.

And before starting my my uh bachelor, I I wanted to do like engineering, and that that was my focus because I I always loved uh math and I was going to that direction.

So I decided to apply for like uh computer science or uh computer engineering, these kind of uh roles.

Um then I got accepted on computer science and I I went there, but I I at that point like I didn't know the difference.

So I I went to uh to live in another city in Brazil to study computer science.

During my bachelor, I had the opportunity to come to Europe for the first time uh to do, it was like a scholarship and it's called like Erasmus Mundus.

It they don't exist anymore.

I think they call like Erasmus Plus or something.

Um I went to Czech Republic, so I stayed there for for a year.

Uh and I I went to the university there.

It was like informatics or something something.

And during this period, I was traveling here in Europe.

So I've I didn't have money and I I have I had a lot of time basically.

So I wanted to understand like how how can I travel with these companies and pay the list?

So that's how my uh thesis from my bachelor uh started.

So I wanted to solve this kind of problem because I wanted to solve for

And then you realize it's one of the un unsolved problems of computer science.

So it is well, it's similar so to the traveling salesman problem.

And basically, I wanted to apply for like traveling as a like a backpacker.

That that point was like really

So yeah, it's it's called traveling backpacker problem or something something similar.

It is it is like uh generalization of the uh TSP, the travel salesman problem.

Because basically the TSP you you want to visit the the cities and then uh you have the path between them.

But uh in in in the case of like flights, you don't always have the path depending on the time that you are traveling, basically.

So it's more restricted.

So okay, so it's a special guest.

Yeah, there are there are a lot of restrictions that we we had to take into consideration.

So it was like a really interesting problem to solve.

So it was fun.

Um you know, so computer science is a very male-dominated field, and I imagine at university as well.

Was that the case for you with that as mainly men in your classes?

Uh my master's uh it was like computer science, but it was a specific field which called like operations research, which is that area that solves this uh optimization problems.

So definitely definitely it was even like my technical course, uh it was like mainly uh men, but uh I think my bachelor was like 50 people, maybe 10, 15 women.

Okay.

Because it's it's odd to me that at least in the United States, most universities are there's more women than men because women are are better students.

And yet computer science it's true, like it's I think it's seven out of ten uh valedictorians.

So the person who's number one in their class in high school in the US are women, and um you actually get an advantage applying to college as a man because it's less competition.

W women do better academically, but uh, you know, um, but and yet computer science and s and many of the hard sciences, though it's changing because you have so many smart women coming in, but they still seem to have a male bent.

Um so you persevered through that.

Because like for me, abstract math and computer science, I don't think I I I wouldn't it wouldn't work for me.

Like I need to know what the problem is, um, which is a long way of saying, but maybe for you, if you identified this personal problem and then it had applications in theory, that probably really helped you stay motivated.

And I think it was the opposite for me because I'm really visual.

Like I I like to visualize the problems, so it's not really if you say something to me, like and I cannot picture this, the problem itself, it's really hard for me to solve.

So for me, this was like a real life example to solve.

So it made sense for me.

When you say that, I'm thinking, well, traveling sales problem is a is a graph problem, and so you're gonna plot that, you're gonna use like graph visualization and all these tools that are in the Python ecosystem.

How like so how how why Python and how Python?

And I I was doing Java because I had a I I was working as a Java developer, so it was easier for me to do both things at the same time.

Were you then traveling around Europe funding your travels by being a Java developer?

No, okay.

Right, okay, okay, okay.

No, I had I had money from like Erasmus.

So they they gave me money for for a year, but I was working before I came here, and then when I came back, I got I got the same job.

Like I just went back to the same job.

Um okay, go on, go on.

Yeah, so when I went back, I I went to my master's, and then I wanted to come back to Europe.

Like that was my plan.

I like I I want to work there or I want to live there, so I wanted to have the experience again.

Oh, it's sorry, it's not uh always the same experience, and it's never gonna be like as like an exchange uh student, but uh I wanted to to come back.

So I was talking to a friend from from the university um from Czech Republic, and he told me that there were those, uh there were there were these guys, they they came to the university to give to give a talk, and they had this uh company, this startup.

And it was like similar to what I was doing.

He didn't know exactly what I was doing, but he he knew it was like flights and traveling.

And he gave, I I don't I don't remember what happened, but I think he gave the gave me the name or the company or email or something.

I contacted them.

They are the the founders of uh Kivi.com.

So that's how I I met them for the first time.

So they actually provided me with the data to for for my tests, uh, for my bachelor and my master's.

And yeah, so it was like really funny to I I didn't even know them.

Like, so I was explaining, like, okay, I'm doing this.

Um, I'm trying to solve this problem, so I think it's it's related.

And they they just like gave me like a dump of the database that they had at the time, like with data from from the flights, the prices, so I could uh test.

And I at that point, like I knew I wanted to come here and work with them.

Um, but I went to masters, so that was uh what I decided to do.

But it's really hard to survive in Brazil if you are like if you do anything uh related to research and like uh university, like so it's really hard.

So at some point I decided to uh go back to the company that I was working before, and at that point I was already like planning to come here, so I was planning to apply for the job, but I knew that they were uh using Python, so I was like, okay, I I need to learn Python.

And maybe it's it's like a big coincidence, but that year there was uh Python Brazil, which is like the PyCon in Brazil, uh in my city.

So it was uh organized in my city, and they had like a jungle girls uh workshop during the weekend, and I decided to apply, I didn't even know what was Jungle at that point.

Like I was going to conferences and events, uh, but uh not as much as here, but I was trying to uh participate and I applied for the Jungle Girls, and it was good because it was over the weekend, otherwise I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to go because I was working with Java, so I couldn't say like okay, can I take a day to go to this Python game?

Yeah, so I I I didn't go to the conference to the PyCon to the Python Brazil, but I went to the Jungle Girls over the weekend.

That's my first experience with Jungle.

So I went to this uh Jungle Girls and they they actually had like two days.

It was like Saturday and Sunday.

So I met a lot of people during the conference.

After the Jungle Girls, I applied for the job, uh, for the job at uh Kiwi.com.

And I got the job like a few months later, but then we had all the all the process of the visa, and I just like quit my job.

I didn't even know, like I didn't sign my contract yet, but I just I knew I I knew I was coming, so I quit my job.

And at the same time, I applied for the there was like the JungleCom Europe.

They had like uh they they had like money to uh support uh people to come to the

So I applied for that and I got it for the jungle com uh Europe in 2016.

It was and the jungle girls, I was like end of 2015, so it was like a few months later.

So it was in uh in Budapest, it was in uh Hungary, and I came.

So it was like the first time that I was uh coming to a like a jungle con.

That that was my my first jungle con.

And at the same time, like because it was in Budapest, it was like really close to Czech Republic.

I went to the city to visit the company that I was gonna work for.

Because at that point I wasn't like formally working for them yet, and I was still going through the process of the visa, so uh I just went to visit.

Um because even with the company sponsoring you, it's not easy, right?

And but they they they helped me a lot.

So it's it's funny because I I I went to Czech Republic and I had to apply for the visa in Czech Republic, but I couldn't apply from within Czech Republic.

I had to go to Austria to apply.

So those those are the things like small things, but it was it was okay.

Just make it just make it difficult.

Was it in English?

Was it in Czech?

Like I I know I didn't I I still don't know Czech.

So I

I think it's harder than uh German German.

So they they say, but I didn't learn.

I spent like five years there.

I don't know how I survived.

I don't know, but I I didn't learn.

Was that before you got into programming or

Like I I went to school in Brazil, like to English school, and but it was like basics.

So you you would go to the class, you would know like the exercise, but I didn't have experience like talking.

So I think I would have enjoyed a lot if I knew more because I was really afraid of talking to people.

Um then uh when I went back to Brazil, uh during my master's, I I spent like three months in Canada, uh in Quebec City, which is French actually, not not English, but I I communicated uh in English,

Like Catalan a little bit, Carlton, right?

I I don't know how what is the term, but the difference was um this time I was alone, so I went by myself and during the uh when I was in Czech Republic, I went there with a friend who actually got the the scholarship as well.

So I was like lucky that I I knew someone, and then I met a lot of Brazilians, so uh and a lot of people like even people from Portugal.

Uh when I went to Canada, I was by myself, so I had to talk.

I feel like at that point I was like a bit more comfortable, but not enough.

Uh, and even when I moved uh to Czech Republic, I I wasn't uh confident about my English, so not even today.

So let's just put it on the table right away.

So Quebec, I just want to follow up.

Um, because I'm just people who you know, you and Carlton who fluently speak so many languages, it's such a different thing than an American.

Um, would you go to Quebec City for English?

Was that the intent?

It was like during my master's.

So I went there to work with uh like a professor, uh professors uh in the uh Laval University, and we were doing research to write the paper.

So basically, but it was also like uh how how do you call that?

Uh well they gave me money to go there to spend those three months, like it was like a project, yeah.

But it was like three months, and we had like all the timeline and what we were supposed to work on, and we were supposed to uh write the paper after.

So that was the purpose.

Uh you know, a new language, new you know, programming, a new environment.

It's just uh like you must have had to come home and collapse a little bit after just to like I don't want to I don't want to talk to anyone for I would for a week or two.

Maybe today I would feel like that.

I can't imagine doing that, but I think at that point was everything was new for me.

Like I I always wanted to go to Canada, so for me it was um like a trip also to visit.

You know, when I when I started out, it was just like nah, I just learn English.

Like that's what I'm gonna do.

Like, but it's like hang on a sec, could step back a little bit.

Hang on, somebody wants to learn programming, they want to learn a new subject, they go and learn another language as well.

That just seems seems a bit much to me.

Like, yeah, I don't know.

Is another thing.

I mean, like, so um if you're in Brazil now and you speak Brazilian Portuguese and you want to learn programming, are there more resources now than there were when you started?

Or do you you know are we making progress?

Like I well, we don't have like all the content that we have today.

Like you today you can learn from anywhere your computer.

Uh at that point, like I I think I learned by doing it.

So when I went to Czech Republic, I remember like the first days or even like the first months probably, I was afraid of like not understanding people or not like go.

They're they're gonna ask me to to like they're gonna give me requirements, they're gonna give me tasks.

And if I don't understand what they they mean, like what I'm gonna do.

So I was like really afraid.

But at that point, I I wasn't like studying.

I except from like doing some English in Brazil, like years, years ago.

I think I learned on the way.

Yeah, right.

Like you you traveled a bit, which I imagine polished your Spanish before you.

Okay, but I moved I went to um I had a couple of words.

I went to Guatemala and I studied for, you know, however long, and I could just about order a few beers by the end of it.

It wasn't until I moved here that I actually developed any and any sort of ability and I had lessons and I and it took years.

I've been here 12 years now, and so okay, I can speak okay Spanish, but it it's not something you can pick up instantly, it just isn't.

It just isn't.

It takes just takes time, it's a life project.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

We should we should have a Django Con Europe in um Berlin.

Yeah.

Got you.

I don't know if soon, but if I stay here, who knows?

But yeah, so

Um it it seems like ten years, but uh I think what I my my decision to move here was mostly based on the pandemic, I would say.

It was it wasn't like about the company or about what I was doing, it was more like I need a change, I think.

So I I decided to start looking for for other uh companies or even like doing something else.

And if I left the company as a tech lead and I got a job here as an engineering manager, I wanted to try this path of like management.

Uh so I decided to uh accept, but then basically I moved here to Germany.

I was working as an engineer manager, like basically full-time management.

And I was working in a company doing uh it was like data infrastructure, so it was like completely different from what I was doing in a different place, in a different position.

So everything changed, and I think it was a bit too much for me.

And it was I I was there for like a year, and it was fun, but at the same time, I I wasn't happy with what I was doing, like as uh for for my job specifically.

Um programming and I'm sorry, programming and programming and managing people, that they're not the same.

No, it's it's so different.

I'm gonna go into management because but what on what of the 10 years of programming has trained you to be a manager of people?

I think I I gave a talk once talking about like the uh tech leadership and saying that this is not a promotion, this is something else, like it's not a promotion, basically.

You you go to another path and you start doing other things, and I wasn't happy with having meetings like three days a week, full day, basically, like from one meeting to another meeting, uh doing one-on-ones, and it I I learned a lot of other things, like besides the the tech part.

You you need to learn how to deal with people, how to uh deal with uh well with the whole team, like how how do we work together?

Because we during this year that I was in this company, um there were a lot of changes, like people left and then they hired some new people, and then this new people left as well.

So there were a lot of changes and changes on the priority.

So I had to, I told my my team, like, okay, I'm really frustrated.

I I told them because I was like super frustrated.

I was actually thinking uh of leaving before I left, so so months before that, and I I stayed because of them.

One of the reasons, like I wanted to live at least with them having some direction of like okay, from here we were gonna go in this direction because we at some point we plan what we were gonna work.

We finished some work and then we we were gonna start something new, which was like designing something new.

Uh, one day before someone told me uh that maybe this is not gonna happen, maybe so.

And I that that's one of the reasons I was like really frustrated.

And it was at that point that I was like, okay, um I that's not what I like to do, basically.

And we I I stayed there to to help the the team, so we we got other work instead of this one, at least until they they decided what to do.

Uh when this was like 2022, yeah, yeah.

And this was like May, and then in September, uh I went to Django Kong.

It was like the first Django Kong probably uh in Porto after the the ones, like the online ones.

And I I remember when I was there, I was telling people like, oh, I I wanna leave.

I like I was really happy to be there.

I need a new job.

Yeah, so I I think I was and I I wasn't working with Python or well, I wasn't doing any development, like any coding or anything like that.

But I wanted to to work with Python again, or or at least like if I had the opportunity, like uh it would be my my first choice, but not I wasn't really working uh looking for uh uh only python or jungle related uh jobs.

Uh but I decided to leave.

Like I I wasn't really happy with like only management things, yeah.

And I like I came back from the vacation because I took vacation to go to Django Con.

So I came back from my vacation and then I quit.

It was basically like I came back on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday.

I talked to to my manager, which was actually my the manager of my manager because my manager had left at during my vacation.

Oh wow.

Like it will fix your problems.

So I just went there.

I spent like a few days with all those people talking and like it was great.

It was like really great because I came back.

I was like, yeah, that that's what I want to do.

Like I wanna keep doing it.

So I came back and I I quit.

But I quit without another job.

So that was how much I wanted to leave the job.

Uh and and it wasn't like the company.

The company was great, and like the people, my team, like they they were uh great, but it was I think especially the type of work I was doing, like management wasn't really what I wanted to do.

And I don't regret because I I chose to do that, so I could see if that's something that I'm I'm interested in.

Uh and well, at least not now, maybe someday again, maybe

So did you manage to find how how did you hook up with them?

Uh in November, December, I was looking for a job, and I remember that it wasn't like a great time because there were all of those uh layoffs and everything was happening during that point.

And I applied for a few companies.

Like I I don't go well in interviews, like I get really nervous.

It's not something that I really well I I don't think maybe some people enjoy to enjoy doing it, but no, I don't

It's a it's a separate skill set.

I don't like that, and I decided to just pick uh just a few companies that I would uh apply because I didn't want to have like five interviews in the same week.

And I wasn't working, like it's not like I was busy, but I was preparing for for the interviews, but at the same time I just I get really uh stress, really.

It's it's not something good.

And I knew that at least like one per week or two, maybe it would be okay for me to do.

Uh so I picked like a few companies.

I think I applied for maybe three, uh, two or three.

And then in December, uh Mark from uh fly.io he contacted me.

And I think when I read the description of the job, I was like, oh, interesting, because it's not something that I have experience with.

It's uh it's more like marketing, because it's similar to like a developer advocate, but a bit different.

So but

Yeah, what's your j your job title?

Okay.

But I I don't know if they had this at the beginning, just because we have like different frameworks in the company, like uh teams inside of the company for each framework.

So it's more focusing on promoting flight through that specific framework.

So I think that that's the idea.

So I think that's the main the main thing that we need to do, uh, to understand like the community, what they're doing, and how fly can be applied to those like use cases and understand, but at the same time, like it's funny because how I met Fly was before that.

Like I already knew Fly at that point when uh they contacted me.

But like a month before, it was uh November when the uh Hiroku was uh they they don't they didn't have uh the the free uh how do you say then the free tier.

So they they ended the the free tier uh in November.

I had like a project, like a personal project, and then I had to move to another place.

That's how I I discovered like fly.

And maybe it was your post, uh Will.

Maybe you talked about them.

Yeah, and I said maybe I did I did a I did a tutorial on um Django and Fly, and then um actually had talked to Mark around that time.

I wish I wish I'd known we didn't mention, but you've been on the board with me for like multiple years at this point.

I wish you told me you were looking because I was aware that they were looking.

Um yeah, I did a tutorial and then I I uh yeah, I wrote the first um Django section for fly.io.

I think it was just two tutorials.

Um so I worked with Mark on that, but then um I was doing other things.

But but then he he then he told me, I think when uh they hired you, and I was like, oh my god, like yeah, she yes, hire her, absolutely.

Um but that was I think that was a lot of hosting companies, right?

Heroku did doing that meant everyone suddenly was looking around at Fly and Render and Railway, and there's a whole bunch of ones.

Um yeah, I I'm curious, you know, I I don't know how much you can or want to talk about you know being internal at Fly during that time.

Because one thing I realized is that they were they were changing, you know, it's a lot of work to be a hosting company and to have to do that and then to have framework-specific tools.

And Fly has a really powerful command line um tool.

How do how do I say this?

Um it could it could use improvements to be specific to Django.

So I worked very, very briefly on that.

Um, but it it keeps developing every time I update Fly CTL.

It's like every week there's a new update.

So I have a lot of appreciation for how challenging it is um to do that, but I think they're getting to the point where a lot of the things like I wrote about in the tutorial and book, you don't have to do anymore because they're automating it.

So it's good for customers.

It's a little frustrating for me as a content creator, but that's you know, that's the least important thing out of it.

Yeah, all which is all of which is to say, and now I've seen um, you know, fly Django section, you've written a ton.

Um were you involved with bringing Mariush um Feliciak on board, or how did that come about, right?

Because one of our Django fellows is now also writing for Fly.

Like Mark told me, like, oh, there's this uh guy that I'm talking to, and maybe he's gonna come like do some blog posts because that that's how it started.

I was like, oh, who who is it?

And then he told me it was like Marius, and I I met Marius like in person, probably at the jungle club that I went.

So I was like, Oh, I know I know him.

Like, okay.

Uh it was great because I I already knew him, so it was like easier to uh onboard him basically.

And so like we are a remote company, so we already work like remotely, so it wasn't uh different with Mariush, but uh I wasn't involved with like getting him.

You I think we joined at the same time at 2020.

Is it was that when you joined?

What what what was that like?

Um how did you become aware of the Django Software Foundation and then running?

And I know, you know, I know a lot of the work you've been doing.

Um could you just speak about what it's been like now?

Is it four three, four, four years?

How many years on the board?

I think four years, right?

So how did how did you first find out about the board?

Because I think a lot of people don't know about it and then you know decide to run and all that.

Yeah.

But uh what I remember, which is like really interesting to to mention, is I applied like I got I I got at the DSF uh in 2020.

It was uh when the pandemic started, so it was like different, I I would say.

Uh I applied like I think a year before, maybe for the uh 2019.

I think I applied.

I didn't get.

And in 2019, I went to the PyCon uh US for the first time, and when I went there, I I met uh Kojo, you know Kojo.

Kojo Recident.

Um like he he remembered my name.

And I was like, Oh yeah, and he was like, Yeah, you you didn't get, but you should you should apply again.

And he basically like encouraged me to apply again, so that's why I did.

So it's basically because of him that I'm the DSF.

And I think at that point, like I didn't know a lot about the DSF, so but that's how I became involved in this.

Like it was like I need to thank him.

2019, I believe.

Did you or Django Kong?

I've I've never been to PyCon US, yeah.

It was Django Kong US, yeah.

Sorry.

Um uh okay, and then yeah, I mean, you know, so one of the reasons, right, the board now has two-year terms is because there was a bunch of us new members, and then the pandemic hit.

And so I think we didn't really know what uh else to expect, but um there was the board and especially you, because you you know, based in Europe, you were working a lot with the the Porto team.

Um there was a real concern, as I recall, around how do we get Django Cons going again and how do we support them?

And I remember you were, I think I don't know if it was, I don't think it was an official title, but you were like the DjangoCon Europe uh liaison on uh on the board.

Um now we have the working groups.

So that's that's finally something that we can like start looking for different.

Because in case people haven't followed along.

And so Python has had some success with working groups um where other members of the community can take the lead on actually doing the things, and I think that was one of the reasons why the DSF has tried and has now launched these working groups, because uh being on the board, you're already doing quite a bit of things, and it's you know we we realized over time that there just wasn't these things weren't gonna happen for the you know, you couldn't ask the seven people on the board to keep doing more.

So I think it was last year that the officially Django launched the working groups.

Yeah.

So for the uh conference.

So when you'd have a pause in hosting them, um that causes challenges and then setting up nonprofits for the money.

And I think the the Porto team did did an amazing job of continuing it and working on it and now and they're helping also the DjangoCon Europe this year as well, which is in Spain, but kind of just yeah, just just over the border.

So that um yeah, there's a lot of communication with the board with with that group, and I I do think we need to thank the that team for keeping DjangoCon Europe going because it felt it felt like maybe it was gonna go away at some point.

So perhaps you know, is it to you know if I think oh could I have it in my town?

Is it am I gonna get I'm gonna get support is the point.

There's people to help me and there's you know

And I'm one of them, like I'm really interested in organizing a jungle con.

But at the same time, like there are so many things that I have no idea that that's one of the reasons that I'm uh involved in the jungle con uh this year.

So I want to learn, but we have now the working group, which will be like to share knowledge about the the organization.

And a lot of the organizers from from the jungle comms uh they they will be in this group to help others, like the new ones.

Okay.

Because maybe you won't be the like main organizer, but you can always like help.

Is that does that is that the where people should go to find contact information and more?

Um I wanted to ask you about the talks you've given because we've got a whole long list of talks you've given in uh various languages at various conferences, and segue to that, the DjangoCon call uh CFP is open for DjangoCon Europe this year, so I was gonna try and twist your arm into submitting for that.

How many of you have given at least half a dozen here?

So I think most of them after that, I I I think I got more involved with the DSF and like volunteer for the Django Con and things more behind the scenes, I would say.

You know, do you have to

So it is something that I need to work on, like it is one of the things uh fly will help with, like public speaking, or even like practicing doing maybe some workshops.

So it is something that I intend to do.

I don't know if this year at Jungle Kong I'm gonna be like helping them uh uh as a volunteer, so I don't know if I'm gonna send, but I want to come back um like to talks, basically giving a talk in uh probably Python Brazil, so like in Portuguese, and I don't know if like today if I feel more comfortable g

iving talks in English or in Portuguese.

Like I feel uh it's really hard to give a talk in Portuguese now because most of the terms are in English, so it is it is weird, but I'm thinking about like Python Brazil.

Other than that, I I still prefer the behind the scenes, like doing other types of work, basically.

Yeah, yeah.

I've already taken it.

Yeah, I should.

I I can I can deploy a jungle app to flying like three minutes.

Yeah, perfect.

There you are then live live demo.

But that point about the the languages, I think that's because okay, Spanish is not my first language, but I you know, I'm I've because I don't work in Spanish, like the what oh god, I have to think, I have to sit there and pause.

Well, what is the word for this and what is the word for that every time?

So to do it the the thought of doing a technical talk in Spanish is much scarier than doing one in English.

You I know I'm native English speaker, so it's it's not quite analogous, but that that technical turn point, it's ah, what is how do I describe this in that language?

Or you if you translate, it feels weird, it feels wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I don't know.

No, never mind.

Like I was living in Czech Republic for five years, so I knew like I I plan to start learning German.

I didn't start, and I feel like most of the time I don't need, but when I need, like I really need.

So uh I think most of the things that I need to do on the daily basis, I can I can do in English, and there are the like the bureaucracy that I cannot do in in English, most of the things related to visa when I left my job, like it was really scary because I I quit and then I went to check like okay, I'm quitting my job, what do I need?

Because I had my visa um bounded to the company, and I was like, can I quit?

So I I had to go to those the the official place like for the work, like you need to let them know that you're leaving the job.

So these kind of situations, it's really hard if you don't know like German.

So there are some situations.

Was there ever any thought to that?

Or I mean, you know, because I'm like I'm from cold climates, but if I was from a warm climate, I don't, you know, Berlin does not have the weather of Munich, right?

Berlin sort of famously doesn't have great weather.

It will it's snowing today, but it's not always like that, but it's always gray.

I don't I don't mind about the weather.

Like I I like sun, but I like cold weather.

So I want to go north.

Okay.

Carlton and I discussed this.

I mean, he's he's his soul is warmer than mine, I think.

Uh yeah.

Um but well, so I did want to mention um we're almost up on time, but there's a whole section on the fly site, uh Django Beats, that we'll put a link to that has the articles that you've written that Mariush has written, because yes, they're specific to fly, but I think 80% of them is really just general fantastic advice on doing things with Django, actually.

So I just want to shout, shout out.

I always read read those and I'm like, oh yeah, that I I learned something and we feature them in the newsletter, even though uh generally the the Django news newsletter, even though generally we don't do company specific things, but if it's very well done and very Django y with a little add-on, then we include it.

Um but that's a that's a wonderful section to see.

That um are there any so I guess to form your question, uh are you gonna continue to put the Django content there or are there any big plans for that that section of the site?

Basically, what I'm trying to do, because uh Marius is just uh basically a writing uh for the blog, it doesn't have like a lot of time.

Uh I'm focusing or integrating fly.

And so I'm trying to understand more about fly and how to use jungle inside of fly, basically.

So I want to mix uh those things like Marius uh usually uh brings more like jungle content, which is great, and then I can focus more on like uh basically mixing those uh uh fly and jungle.

Um well one one um the guest we had before you was uh Simon Willison, one of the creators of Django who works on dataset, and he's a big fan of fly.io, um, in large part because of the security around private containers, which we don't have to get into, but I thought that was interesting.

That um I believe that's if not unique to Fly, that's an unusual feature that when you spin up uh a new instance on Fly, it's its own private container.

Um so like for me, when I was updating my content on deployment from Heroku to Fly, the fact that Heroku is still Git based, so you git push and then it puts it on AWS, whereas with Fly, it basically copies everything over to a container.

And so um that's a shift for people who are used to Git-based deployment.

But seems to be the way all the modern hosting providers are doing it, you know, not just fly, which is sort of interesting, but something, something to learn for the old dogs used to used to get git pushes.

There now like uh GPUs now uh with Fly.

So there are a lot of conversation with like AI.

I don't I don't know exactly what he's doing, but I know he's around there and talking to people from the company.

Yeah.

He's on Duolingo too, and we're I'm friends with him on Duolingo.

And we had this this French challenge that we had, and uh, I'd done seven lessons and he'd done like 45 or something, and it was like, okay, yeah, that's that's probably why

He was telling us that he he he codes while walking his dog, he has his phone and uses uh chat GPT to you know so he's just uh you know constantly, constantly on the brain, which is very I I always come away being like I should be more passionate about coding talking to him, right?

I mean I am, but like, yeah, levels.

So go ahead, Carlton.

Like it's

Um is there anything we we we didn't ask you about or you want to raise as we conclude?

I know we um talked about a lot of a lot of things, but I you know having known you for all these years, I never knew that your real backstory on how you I just knew, oh there's there's there's Katia.

She lives from Brazil, she lives in Berlin.

You know, and then we talked about the matter at hand, but none of the you don't really get the chance to find out about someone in their in their real background.

But you like the cold, so that's

Oh, I love snow.

Oh, at least for now, but let's see.

Well, we have we'll have links to all these things.

Um and again, for for those who do speak um Portuguese, uh Brazilian Portuguese, all your talks which you gave, which people should go and check out.

Um and yeah, thank you.

Thank you so much for coming on.

I hope I hope some listeners are thinking about also hosting a conference and reaching out to the working group or or reaching out to you for help on where to go from there.

Thank you.

So we are DjangoChat.com, and we'll see everyone next time.

Bye bye.