Transcript: From Kenya to London with Django - Velda Kiara

I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hey Carlton.

Hello.

Welcome.

It's so happy.

I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so excited.

I've been constantly following this podcast for one of the longest times in my life, even when I started Django.

And now I get to hang out with the Koo K.

So yeah.

I don't know why we haven't had you on earlier.

Because you've been around the Django ecosystem for quite a while now.

So for those who don't know, just as quick background, you're a software engineer at RevSys, Microsoft MVP, you've worked with DEFNA, which is which runs DjangoCon US.

You've worked on the with Django Knots on the updates for the Django News newsletter.

You did a fellowship with the Python Software Foundation.

Let me look at my notes.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but you're just kind of and and you speak regularly at conferences.

We're gonna talk about that.

Um so let me start with how do you how do you do all that?

Because I feel tired just listing all that out.

Like when I'm doing it, it doesn't sound as much, but when somebody else starts saying it, I'm like, ooh, that's a lot.

That's a lot.

But yeah, it's like all of them are kind of like related.

So it doesn't seem like it's a lot of work because if I'm doing I did Django Knot Space because I wanted to contribute to Django, and then I got to be a maintainer for Django De Baktobar through the program because I was an active contributor and I got along well with the maintainers.

And yeah, it's like open source, and open source is fun, right?

And then the Django Events Foundation of America got involved because I attended my first Django Con US and I loved it and I wanted to be present and I wanted to be involved with making it better to like make other people's experiences better as well, and that kind of like happened as well.

So they were they were they had an open to they had a call for open positions that you could like apply for, and I was like, ooh, that sounds good.

And I was like, I hadn't served on a board before, so I didn't know how that's going to be like, but I was like, I mean it's it's Django, it's Django Con, so it's not going to be difficult.

And that's how I got in.

I did do some interviews and I had to like justify why exactly I think I'm the right person for the job.

And I think, yeah, also like listing out things that I have done and commitments that I had before and how that led me to where I am, meaning I also did have like some leadership skills as well, which also helped me through the application, if I would say.

So yeah, it's like consistently they're all connected.

And then I also got to be a Python Software Fellowship fellow, yeah, PSF Python Software Fellowship.

Yeah, foundation fellow.

Is it fellow?

Which is it?

So that's how I got involved, too.

Yeah.

And when I was learning how to code, I was so frustrated that it all these acronyms and everyone's like, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, A, B, C, D, E, F.

We're like, oh, what is what is that thing even called?

You know, sort of you sort of forget.

And then that also became like based on the contributions I had done, also like technically and also community-wise, I got to be involved with like the Microsoft Most Valuable Professional Program in a way.

So all of these things are all connected.

The good thing is that it's one thing that's like all these things.

So yeah.

Yeah.

It's like the most thing, it's like the most like I get to have a lot of fun.

Like I get to meet you, I get to meet Carlton and uh and have conversations, and I'm like, what?

So I love it.

Yeah.

It's also um you do get interviewed, you get a lot of responsibility.

And part of the open source thing is like it's like how much can you handle?

And so people are very open and welcoming, but there is a lot that happens behind the scenes for events, for the code, for everything else.

So Yeah.

And you have to enjoy it too, because uh other than having like a lot of work, you get to engage a lot more with like people.

So you also get to like develop like really good social skills and also get time out of like, hey, like I've been interacting with people for a while now, not it's time for time out, but I'm gonna be back.

You know that's

Is the social side.

Yeah.

But yeah, if you say I'm just gonna take a little step back, I think everyone who's been in the community for a minute can appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah.

Like we all appreciate every amount of effort, whether you can do it for a day or like a week, it's all for the benefit of the community.

And I think that's that's how the community grows.

That's how I get to be here.

That's how I get to even talk to you right now.

So yeah, I'm excited.

And then I'm like, oh, and now like darkness comes in at 3 p.m.

and 2 p.m.

And considering like like I'm from like Kenya, and Kenya is like we get equal sides of the day and night, so it's like the sun's up when the sun's up, the sun sets and the sun sets, right?

And so everything is like uh really balanced, and we also have like really good weather.

So when I came here, it's like negative something degrees, and they're like, Oh, it feels like negative eight, but it's actually negative two, and I'm like, why?

Nothing's helping, so I had to like get used to like different clothing, having warmer clothes, and getting to also meet other people here as well, and getting to interact with like other people who are also moving.

So I think London is like the seat spot of like most of the people are also like moving in and other people are moving out.

But it's always like like it's so inclusive as well.

It's like there are a lot of people who are also moving.

There are a lot of people who are also navigating, and yeah, you get you just find other people who are doing the same, and then you start bonding over things that are different.

Yeah, yeah.

But I remember um right now it's going to be like uh a year in February 17th.

So I'm gonna be celebrating a whole new year here.

I'm excited.

I'll probably get a cake or something, but yeah, I wanna I wanna celebrate the change in weather and the change in life and everything.

And I mean some of the uh some of the things that really shocked me is like and something that actually I had to figure out was the whole assembling of furniture.

That was the most weird thing that I've ever done.

Like normally, so when I order a bookshelf like back home, I'm always like I get I get it delivered because it's already built, so it's just like, okay, here's your bookshelf, navigate out to get it to your room or your house, and then that's it.

I'm not assembling anything.

I order your bookshelf here, and I almost cried assembling it because it's like different pieces and it's like a weird color, and it's like I had to figure out which nails go where, what does what?

And I was like, I can't do this anymore.

And I was like, why?

And actually, when the delivery person was handing it to me, I was like, Are you sure?

Because I ordered a complete one.

So it's like one of those things I'm like, well, no, now I can assemble bookshelves and I look forward to assembling things.

And I'm like, mmm, and it's a

do stuff.

Like, what are things that I should not touch in terms of also like food, which restaurants do people go to?

It's like figuring out all these things all at the same time and still being able to do work and life things.

And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.

I was like, I I didn't I didn't subscribe to this level of adulting, but here we are.

Because you take yourself away from your whole social group, your whole social network, your family network.

It's like you weren't there on your own or with one or two people, and it's like, yeah, okay.

Yeah, and I was like, So I know you've lived in Spain, and I know you've lived in the UK, and you didn't even ask me how I knew that, but I was like, Yeah, I need to talk to people who've also like done move, like moved countries before, and I was like, this is the person to talk to.

And weirdly enough, I also had like the option of like trying to figure out other countries other than the UK, maybe figure out Spain.

But then when you look at the different opportunities they are and how easy it would be to like get from one job to another, the UK made made absolute sense, and you were like, Yeah, I mean, you're young, you got this.

I remember you specifically said that you were like, You're young, you have grid, you still have energy, go do it.

And I was like, You still have energy.

Should I do something?

Yes or no?

Have you got the energy?

Yeah, yeah.

I was like, well, at least I know he's up there, so yeah.

Yeah.

Um and Spain, like just but coming to the from to Europe or the UK from outside, it's like, well, the UK still has a higher GDP per capita, it still has more economic activity, there's still more commerce there than there are in Spain, you know.

The the richer countries generally are to the north.

Um, and there's you know the cost of that is the really early afternoons this time of year, right?

And I recall the first year was sort of overwhelming and exciting, and and then I think probably the first, the second year was my favorite part because it was like everyone's new, but I knew people, and it was like this sort of Goldilocks moment.

Yeah.

And then at least for me by year three, because it's like a transient international place, people had already started leaving.

And um I suppose it's the same with any place, right?

You sort of ride that curve of like, oh my god, oh, things are great, and then like, yeah, it's okay.

Um, like the you know, when you get old, like Carlton and me, the thing about transient places is like, you know, people come and go, and it gets a little less exciting.

You're like, oh man, they're gonna come pay.

A long way of saying, I think the next year will be even better for you.

Yeah.

And I'll be curious what it's like in you know, years three, five, you know, because you'll see you'll see those newcomers and be like, oh, I remember that like first year energy.

I think what really helped is that I also like got in touch with uh Chuck and Adam Johnson, who are also like in the Python and Jingle communities, and they were really helpful.

Like I was like, yo, if y'all weren't in my life right now, I don't know what I'll be doing.

Because it's like Chuck was showing me around and she was also telling me like the good spots to like also shop for like thermal clothes, and Adam took me like knife shopping because apparently there's just exclusive shops that like sell knives because they're not like readily available ever because of stabbings that happen frequently.

So even when you're getting a knife, you actually need to like have an ID or have an ID and like have to have like a permit of like carrying the knife from the place you're in to like your house.

Like it's a lot, and I was like, I think.

Oh wait,

I'm like, cooking knives then?

Maybe that is more specific.

But yeah, like they've been really helpful in also like uh helping me understand how the city works, the transportation system and how to get from point A to point B faster, route options and all that.

So yeah, the community does work, even in life.

I always they always on the socials with it, I'm always like, oh, I would go, but I'm you know, dowz not.

We actually have a meetup this Thursday.

So yeah, I'm also got involved, courtesy of Adam, and I'm also like involved with organizing.

So in case any of you are around, we could figure out a way to get you to speak to our meetup people as well.

So open in butt, come through.

Maybe next week might be fun.

But it's an ongoing thing, yeah.

We do it once at least every month.

So maybe you can come in in the summer when we have good weather.

I think was it Pi Cascades around Django optimizations and performance?

Yeah.

I I thought that was great.

That was a really great overview.

And um let me put it to you.

It's your talk.

What was the kind of impetus for this talk and um you know, kind of the highlights?

Because everyone says, oh, Django performance, but then doesn't really know where to go.

And you laid it out really well.

So I had like different conversations with people and they were like, Yeah, but don't use Django because you know it's it has performance issues when you start scaling in like different places, and I'm like, like, have you used it though?

So my question is, have you used it?

What issues do you have?

Because I mean, even Facebook uses like uh Django in a way, and I'm like, is it Facebook or is it Instagram?

Like what Instagram?

You shouldn't out, like we're not seeing the reels and videos, and we're not liking all those things, and it's built on Django, so I'm like, I mean, if they're using it, they're having they have a lot of users, so what's the problem?

So most of the times when I hear like um opinions like this, I'm always curious, okay, why are you saying that?

Like, what use case do you have?

Because I'm like, I know there's definitely different use cases that might not work, and that's understandable, but just saying it because of just saying it didn't make sense to me.

So I went and did a whole talk on it on Pie Cascades.

That was like last year or time, like now, actually.

So it's really neat that it's also coming out right now when you're asking me this question.

And so I wanted to dig into how you could also like increase performance and how that would look like on your app, and not just for people who are scaling, but people who would just want optimal performance year-round.

And so when I looked at that, I was like, okay, what are the things that we could actually talk about other than the common things like select related, prefetch related, caching, and indexing, right?

And then also when it comes to indexing, they're like different trade-offs, right?

You can't index every single column, like that doesn't even make sense, right?

And plus it's also creating like a different data structure, which means it's also like getting using up more space than you need.

So all these things, and I'm like, nothing does something perfectly all around, right?

That's that's something I came to accept in the in the software space.

Like everything does something really well, but not everything.

And that's why we also have like different libraries and different packages.

And I'm like, yeah, it works, but to a point.

So you just have to figure out what your point is and then work on that.

And that's how I actually approached the talk as well.

And I talk about a lot of like um a shorting as well.

I talk about serialization, which also ties out to like a marshalling that I had on my newsletter last week.

Yes, last week.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's super it's yeah, you write that every week, no?

I used to write it every week, but then I was like, I don't have enough stories to tell.

And like what's good about my newsletter is it's called The Story You Teller by Tales.

So I'm like, I love telling stories, I love telling people about what's going on, what's fun to do.

And this time I had to do it differently because I was doing a course in system design and they mentioned something about marshalling, and I was like, oh, that seems interesting, but I don't know what that really means.

So I had to like put a pin on it.

And then that same week, I had a meeting with like Jeff and Frank, and they also mentioned marshalling.

I was like, this is a sign, this is a sign.

And so on the newsletter, I had to like define what marshalling is in the concept of in system design and also in Django.

So, in terms of system design, it's basically trying to uh change data into a format that's easily transmissible in like runtimes and different processes.

But now in Django, it I wouldn't call it specifically marshaling, but I'd call it like serialization, what Django Rest framework does really well.

But then it's also like transmits like data right to the to the API and from the API because that's what serialization is like changing the Python object to JSON and the serialization back.

So it's like it's kind of the same thing, but the only thing that's different is that system design is more like diverse.

I would say it's much more larger in terms of scale, but when it comes to Django, it's very specific to the Python objects.

And so in this case, serializers actually act as marshals.

And that was like, it's like I was like, it's just serializations.

Like I wanted to say like clarified serialization, but I've not done system design enough to actually say that for certain.

But yeah, it's like one of those things that you look at and you're like, oh, so I've been doing this this whole time, and I didn't know what that was.

Just something for it.

Exactly.

It's like, oh, and then also when I started getting into system design, I really wanted to understand like how do people get like the calculations of how many seconds this result you how many seconds you're getting the results, how like how everything ties up, and how do we actually define how many servers do we need, how many like data do data storage do we need?

And I was like, I was curious about that, and that's how I ended up in the system design course, and that led me to marshalling and now writing it on my newsletter.

So yeah, it's like a lot of interesting things that I come across of.

And sometimes, like in the newsletter, I just like like highlight things that I have done during the week.

So it might be like a crazy story, or maybe how difficult I had assembling a shelf for a quick laugh and then, or maybe like things, or maybe if I visited somewhere and I think it's like a good recommendation for people.

So yeah.

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Right, yeah, we start the show here every week and we're like

I was like, I want to do that in my life.

Like, I want to take vacation and not do a lot of things.

You don't say like, you know, retired or semi-retired or you know, taking a year, a fun of was it fun employment?

You gotta say sabbatical.

That's like the NBA version.

Sounds vaguely academic, but

It's like, yeah, I'm original that I can take time off and I'll work.

Yeah.

Because it doesn't matter what language or framework you're using, like there are some sort of kind of engineering basics which if you haven't got it's you you're kind of guessing.

Whereas if you have got them, you can do the calculations up front.

That's really useful.

That's really useful learning to have, I think.

Yeah, no.

And I think doing what you're doing of like going the upper level of saying, oh, like there is this pattern, I can name it, I can see it in Django, that's how you get 10 years experience instead of right.

It's it is very easy, and I certainly have succumbed to this of just like being so focused on the task at hand, you never get the bigger picture.

Whereas I don't know, Carlton, I would say now I feel like the only thing I have is some degree of a bigger picture and the confidence to like be able to dive in.

Because I can't possibly remember everything, but I'm like, oh, I kind of know how this thing fits together, or I know how I would go tackle it if I needed to.

Whereas when I was starting out, it was just everything felt new and overwhelming.

And you it may not you have to implement it and see, but yeah experience gives you that ability to kind of start planning it before you even finish reading the problem statement.

Like it's you know, gently.

Um I don't know.

But yeah, that will sound super.

That's why I said once you find your point, then you start working from the point that you had.

It's not like I am attached to this tool.

It's like, no, which tool does it actually work best with?

And it like detaches you from like all the tools, all everything that needs to be, like any tool that you need to use to build it out, and just like looking at the problem and being like, this are the calculations that we have, this is the amount of space that we would need, these are the list of things that we would like to accomplish, and this is like the output of what we expect the system to be or to do.

And that really helps also when you're working in Django because then you know why this is needed and it's not just building it out before the sake of building it out.

So why are you worried about going faster?

Yeah.

So we consistently had to like bust out of caching, and I'm like, I thought caching works, I thought it would work on every new skin.

Like, what is going on?

And I was getting frustrated because Jeff was giving me that ticket because it's like, I mean, you did it first, so you gotta see it through.

So it's like I have to make sure that it works, and it it's one of the reasons why I think it would break is because we were loading up like 30,000 results in one page, and inside the 30,000 results are like 15,000 each.

So I'm like, I mean, it can only work to a point.

So we had to consistently like figure out how if the user wants results immediately, because I mean it's a user and they need to get what they want, they need to get what they paid for.

So had to figure out, okay, so we're not gonna cash this for a while, or we're going to be basting out of cash in case there are changes.

And it's like, mmm, working with different clients is both interesting and challenging, but you always get the most bizarre feature requests, and I'm always like, wow.

Well, I'm interested to see how I figure that out.

And I really do appreciate that because I also get to work on open source.

I get to contribute to like Django Health Trick, I get to work with other people's libraries as well and contribute to them.

And I also get to build different projects every couple of months.

Maybe this month or the next few months, I'm going to be working on e-commerce and I'm I need to figure out okay, how do payments work in other places, in other locations?

What are we expecting?

And in other situations, like right now, we're working with like a payment, payment, I want to say payment platform service, but yeah, it's like something in line with payment.

And so every project is different, every need is different, and every request is always different.

And that's what I look forward to because there's always something new to learn.

And I feel like that just excites me.

I'm like, okay, let's see how we do this one.

Okay, let's see how this one goes.

So it's like, ooh, I'm like, I don't I don't get bored, is what I'd say.

So it's it's constantly new things, new issues, new projects, and I like that and I appreciate that.

And I also get to like work with a really good team of like people who've been in Django, and I'm like, sometimes we're like in meetings and they say something, I'm like, I don't know what that is.

How do you do that?

And it's like also like getting like some of that experience from them when they're like listing things and they're like, oh, you could use this package.

And I'm like, I didn't even know that package existed.

I don't know what it does.

And if you if you ask him nicely, Frank will teach you Pearl as well.

I don't I don't know if I want that though.

Uh and also the clients, you know, you're not just doing crudoth real estate websites or something all day long, which, you know, I get it, but consultancy is a wide spectrum.

So Yeah.

So they also appreciate like community efforts and they're like, yeah, they fully support it.

And I'm like, I don't know, it's it's like an ideal place for a jingle person to work at.

And it was really difficult to also like figure out like what projects or what um when I was choosing this career.

Well, actually, I chose it and then I realized that oh, I needed to specialize.

And there are not so many options because most of the options that I was getting were like JavaScript based.

And I'm not saying JavaScript is bad, and they're not what I wanted to do.

I wanted to write Python every day.

And so if I want to try Python, I started working with Django and I was like, it would be really cool if I got involved with a company that does that, and that really reduces the choices that you have because most of these companies don't also hire every single time.

And I'm always like, wow, how do I get into this job?

Like, how am I going to manage getting a job?

And so uh I actually met the team at uh DjangoCon US, my very first Django Con in 2023.

It was in Durham.

And I actually didn't know that people had like Jeff or Frank had a company.

I was just like talking to everybody who would like listen to me and be like, hey, I'm doing a lot of open sourcey, just in case you have something, let me know.

I'd be happy to do it, and stuff like that.

Was that I think because I think I think uh I was I don't know if that was the first time I met you, but I definitely we met we met there like in person.

Um is that the first time you met Jeff and Frank?

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, I mean, God, like for me it's like a blip, and then for you to go from that to where you are now, that's that's kind of crazy.

That's so fast.

So I'm like, I'm gonna use it to the best that I can, meet a lot of people, and also like meeting you for the first time.

I was like, why is an author talking to me?

Like, aren't you like beyond me?

Like, are

This is what I need from you, Carlton.

Come on, a little more deference.

And I'm like, wow.

So, you know, it all just filters around.

People are like, how do I break into the Django community?

How do I get a job in in Django?

That well, there are a lot of companies out there that are using Django that don't label themselves as Django shops, but you know, to turn up at the conference and actually, you know, make sure you introduce yourself to everybody, you know, make sure you're really out there and just say, Hey, I'm doing this, I'm volunteering, look at me, this is my profile, this is what I'm doing.

Yeah, how it's gonna work, and it's gonna work a lot better than sending out you know cold approaches on LinkedIn, or I got you know some mass mensing gist spam the other day.

You know, like it's gotta have zero response, right?

To get out there and actually put yourself in the community.

Yeah, that's how you get into it.

I was like, I don't know if anything is gonna pan out, but I just want to go have fun, meet people, interact, and maybe eventually someday in my lifetime, I'll eventually say that I got this.

So yeah, and it worked out great.

And most of the times I'm always like, I cannot believe that I was just talking.

And it wasn't like an official talk, it was just like chats.

We were having like, I think dinner or was it drinks?

And like I I just mentioned, like, hey, I'm looking for something that this is my job profile.

Well, actually, I didn't say job profile, but I said, Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn.

I use my official names.

And in like a couple of months, you were like, Hey, yeah, we have this open source thing that we're looking to upgrade.

Would you be open to doing something?

And I was like, Yeah.

And I mean, I was like, I was very fair bagassed.

I was like, You remember?

I was like, I didn't like it wasn't like um actively being like, hey, I need a job, where are you?

Here's my CV, call me back and all that.

It's like, no, I actually wanted to interact with you firstly because you were a person and I've seen like interesting things you've worked on.

And that's for people, they also say, like, you've done a lot of open source stuff.

So if you want to talk open source, go to him, talk to him.

So I was like, okay.

You're not asking everyone for a job, you're just saying, can you help me?

Right.

So then someone may not be hiring, but everyone knows everyone, and they can say, Oh, have you right?

Like that's I mean, I used to think of this when I was, you know, in Silicon Valley for a brief period of time.

People from my school would call me, and I would always think, you know, you could ask me how like what the job is like, or you could ask me for a job.

And I'd rather you ask me for a job, but like not me specifically, but say, hey, I'm a business student looking to break into startups.

This is what I want to do.

Here's my profile.

Who do you know?

Um that's much strong, you know, or I'm a software engineer.

Like it's so much stronger, it's so much easier.

And again, it often is the case that it's like lodged in someone's mind, and then when they hear, oh, someone's looking for something, it's like, oh yeah, have you talked to this person?

Yeah.

I do think that really helped because when I was also hunting, I was like, I don't want to just do nothing and just apply for jobs.

I want to actively participate in like things that I want to do.

So eventually something, if something happens, it does.

Otherwise, I still get the skills.

So yeah, it's like it's tough out here.

And now with AI, it's like, mm, it's not gonna be a nice, a nice environment because I'm like, it's a lot, like there's a lot.

And like I've never it's never written something that I would pass off as my own in entirety.

Now it's probably trained on my code and Carlton's code, you know.

But like it's like if I, you know, I don't know, that's that that's the mental thing I have is that like I use it, it's great for referencing, it's great for ideas, but as a replacement, it seems like an accelerant for someone who's eager to learn, go to the next step.

It's a great tutor, but to say it's gonna replace the knowledge that a human has, misunder it just misunderstands what a software engineer does.

Yeah.

And I think like, as you said, like you and Carlton have a lot of experience.

You've built out systems, you've broken systems.

So even when something breaks, you already know where where the potential problem is.

And I think with a number like with a good number of experience and like trials and errors, I think you have a good baseline to just be like, I don't want to do the grant work.

Let me just write a spec and let AI handle, and then I could review, right?

And that works perfectly because I mean you've already accumulated a lot more, and so right now it's just like basically upgrading what you have or using constantly using what you know and learning some other new things.

But then the challenge comes in when people want to replace like their brain functions with AI, like outsourcing decisions to AI, like you can't say hello to someone without referencing AI or telling AI to like, hey, respond to this.

And I'm like, that's where I think the issue comes in.

It's like I think you can still be human and do like normal brain functions instead of outsourcing your brain.

And the other thing that I'm pretty worried about is like right now with like early talent, like early talent, how like you can use it as a good research point, which I think it does really well.

But then if you start using it frequently without absorbing the information that you're getting, then it just thinks for you.

And then I mean it could think to a point, like it's not going to be like a hundred percent sure.

And how true do you know that whatever it's saying is okay if you don't know even what the truth is or what the actual source of information is.

So there are pros and cons, but I do think the people who are thriving the most with AI are people who are experienced and people who can afford to be like, I don't need to use all my time doing this groundwork when AI could do it.

The other people who are struggling are people like me who are trying to level up and trying to figure out what's the best way to work with AI without necessary, necessarily impacting my brain and and like having like retaining content and retaining information.

And so I don't know, those are just like different conversations to have.

I mean, I don't know.

It's like it has disrupted how everything used to work in a good way and in a bad way as well, because it's like, okay, so how are we going to conduct hiring?

So are people going to be allowed to do use AI in interviews?

And then how does that look like for the company?

Like, how do we know that this person is actually really good at what they do, or if it's just a flake or a fluke?

So I don't know.

It's like it's a lot.

Like they're like, oh, that's the only thing that matters how good your prompts are.

Well that like that's not the onion.

Like they're you know, I mean that says a lot about YC these days.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Well, well, let me ask so specifically though, so for you, right?

So you do client work, the client just wants it to be correct.

How do you so that's good in that you you can use it however you need to use it.

You're not being forced to use it.

If it helps, you use it, if it doesn't, you don't use it.

But how how how are you using it?

Because Jeff has mentioned that you are using it and finding ways.

I'm always curious, like how, you know, what are the positives that you're finding for using it?

I'm always like, hey, I'm looking for resources on let's say Nats, because I used Nats previously.

Like who has written an article on Nats that uses Django or Python that I could look at and then I'm like source because I'm always like source.

I don't want to be able to do that.

So that's me too.

Because it won't unless you ask it for it.

Yeah.

I don't know if you're telling me the truth or not, right?

And you know, AI wasn't built to tell you the truth, it was built on existing data, it just gives you out like just gives you feedback.

That's like I got into a hole of like researching LLMs with how they train everything.

So I do know that it was not trained to tell you the truth, it was trained to give you information.

The information is entirely up to you to figure out if it's true or not.

So I'm very cautious about that.

So if I'm looking, um, I usually use it like that in like resource stuff because sometimes I'm like, I would like to use it in like code and be like, hey, write this, write that, but I'm always like iffy about it for some reason because I'm like, okay, is it going to think for me?

Is it like, how do I work with it?

And I think I've mentioned to Jeff this as well because I'm always like, most people like to use it, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm still like doing a lot of interesting things, and I don't know if I want to outsource that trial and error, that struggle of learning to AI.

Yeah, that's the thing.

Like using it to debug like JavaScript, because I do not like writing JavaScript, but I have to eventually figure it out.

I do use it to like uh debug JavaScript research, and I think the other use case was like if I'm trying out a model, I'd want to see how the test would look like.

So it's like shows me like a mock-up of tests, and then I could be like, okay, maybe I could think in that line, but touching my code, nah.

It's I'm always like, no, I'm not trying to do anything funny, and I'm always like using it on chat.

I'm not audacious enough to have it in my terminal.

I'm not audacious enough to have it change anything.

I'm just like keeping it at arm's length and trying to also make sure that I'm in the correct space of consistently learning and trying out new things because I mean, how else are we going to learn at this point?

Like however it rolls out, it's not gonna be the case.

Well, not unless these machines get suddenly much more capable than they are.

But it's not gonna be the case that the human isn't needed, that the skilled engineer isn't needed.

And if you just lean into them totally, you won't be a skilled engineer.

As you said, even when you're doing performance in Django, there is like trade-offs that you need to think about.

So technically it's like the same thing, but I'm like, I don't know if you also know enough that like how everybody's saying, like, oh, we're going to do a lot with like medicine and all that.

And I'm like, the same thing that's giving me weird results is what we're depending on for like medications right now.

I think we we have some long way to go before that's possible, but okay.

They can put out the facts on their training data, but they're not able to take a history and interpret it in a way that leads to a diagnosis reliably.

Yeah, in some limited cases maybe, but not

Yeah.

And I think that, oh, sorry about that.

So there is like a use case that I had.

So I had a delivery coming in with like a different system.

And so to get like to the customer service, you had to go through a bot.

But a bot doesn't have all the use cases.

And so I was stuck on the bot for a while, and then I had to like, I had to like use weird like issues that people had higher that had like shared on Reddit so that I could like figure out how to bypass the bots because it was an actual problem that you as long as your issues are not meeting what the bot needs, it's it's just going to be stuck in the same process.

And so you don't get like also to contact like customer care.

And I'm like, but I know we want to replace like the the customer support and with AI, but there is no like learning loop, and there's no like human who's like on standby if like there's a persistent user who's having problems.

So I was like, you're actually turning away clients and customers because from my experience, I'm never using that company again, and I don't care if they build a new world or they do whatever, I am never touching them ever again.

And so it comes down to like also in terms of like businesses that want to embrace like AI and other different tools, I think it is okay because sometimes it makes sense business-wise, right?

But it might not make sense to like for me as a user, but business-wise probably makes sense.

But then when I have problems, how are we going to work together?

Because I'm technically giving you money and you're giving me a service.

So if I'm not giving you money for your service, so how how is the business working again?

So I don't know, it's kind of like also like different edge cases.

Maybe to somebody else, it does really make sense, but to me at that point, it was like, no.

And considering that there was a long Reddit thread, I do believe it's a real

people feel the same.

Yeah.

And so you read popular things and it's like, oh, it's taking over coding, therefore it's gonna just one-to-one replace all these other things.

And I find that it's hard, it's an interesting place to be.

It's hard to have like an actual conversation with people about what it might, you know, there's a lot of medical people near here, what it might do, because A, they don't understand the underlying technology, but B, they're just reading, oh, but it's replaced all the programmers.

And it's hard to have any nuance in there.

Like it's hard to do things like, you know, when when you can have closed systems with reinforcement learning.

So better at chess, better at Go, like absolutely machines.

And I'm sure there's gonna be a growing case of where AI can take over there, but most of the world and most business problems are not closed systems.

And so um yeah, it's interesting.

Like we're living in the one area that's being disrupted that is the harbinger for everything else.

And yeah, it's in yeah, it's I don't know, just an observation.

I don't know, Carlton, if you have lots of AI fanatics near you and the coast of Spain.

I don't speak to people, so it's hard to know.

So, you know, I'm quite angry.

Well, you have everything.

Um, wait, all right, so technical things.

I did want to uh ask you about Neapolitan.

So, Velda, this is Carlton's package.

I understand you've actually been using it in the real world.

So, so can we talk about that a

little bit?

And well, part of it is because I also didn't read the documentation, but beside that

I gotta start coding.

Yeah, I know.

Go on then.

Uh at some point I was like, Yes, yes, I do understand how that works, but at the same time, it's like, oh god, I don't know how this works.

So I think also the problem, well, not the problem, or like the the project I had, I had to do a lot of customizing.

And so I had to actually get into like the base templates, mortify, and I was finding it hard to locate where those files were, and also figuring out like which one does what.

And as I said, I didn't read the documentation, but I had to because now I had a custom problem to solve.

And so I had to also look for the template text specifically for the views because there were a lot there were different ways that we wanted to custom make the the views and the forums as well.

And I found it so difficult.

I was like, why?

Why couldn't we just create them normally?

And it's like, do you want to use just one for like all of that?

So the way I so the the base templates that um I ship with Neapolitan, they're just sort of like um what do I call them bootstrapping templates?

So they get it up and I immediately replace them with my own ones for that view.

So like I won't use the the list view or the the object view.

I would certainly don't try and customize the template tag.

I'm just like, no, no, no, I just want to put in my own template here.

But the the bit that I think is of genuinely value, and I love it.

I'm I'm literally in love with it, is is CrowdView itself because it gives you that namespace, it gives you all the methods.

But yeah, no, the the first thing I do is so I bootstrap the view, I you know, I put it in a four-line thing, and I've rooted it and I load the page, yep, it loads.

Right.

And then like, okay, here's my own template.

Um I mean that does work, and it it does work really well.

And I appreciate the fact that I didn't have to write a couple a lot more views and figure out testing the views as well, each and every one for create update and delete.

But then I think once we we got into like the actual, like we there is a certain way that we wanted the forms to look like, and I think I realized they did the project was using the default like templates that you had.

So I was like, okay, that's gonna be a bit of spice inside there, but yeah.

So I had to like figure out like how do I actually edit out this form?

How I want to add more fields, but we're using the same ones that are there.

So how do I add the like going to the tags and figuring it out?

And so I was like, why?

But then at the same time, like, yes, it does make sense, but why?

So okay, yeah.

So I define a project level um form renderer, um, which um uh brings in the templates that I want to use for the forms, and um I'll I basically just use the stock ones.

I've got some small net small customizations so I can um override the field template much more easily.

Yeah, yeah.

And then I just define some CSS that styles them how I want.

So I use the div templates, and in my my actual um templates that I'm using, I just use the uh mustash mush dash form.

What was it?

I didn't have that, so I had to like figure it out.

No, I do.

I was thinking this whole time, I did I think I don't know if I've 100% promised you, but I told you I'd write a tutorial of Neapolitan and I still haven't done it.

Um it's very

much so

But it's how I do forms, how I do you know, templates, how I do, you know.

And when you've only it's only like 300 lines on, you read the whole thing and you understand it entirely, and you can just go right.

I'm just gonna override that.

I'm gonna override that and do that.

So I'm like, you have a lot of background that I didn't have when I was looking at that project for the first time.

And so even when I was going to Jeff, I was like, I don't know how you use this, but then after do doing a lot, like reading out the documentation, I was like, makes sense.

I understand why Carlton did that, and I was like, I'm definitely going to drag you a little bit on your own.

So if I will own entirely that it is not like the the the the beginner on ramp.

Here look, if you're just getting started with views, if you're getting started with Django, all of that stuff is just totally missing because I haven't literally haven't had the capacity to write it.

I thought you were gonna tell me off about the fact I haven't updated it in aging.

That was like last year, and so I was like, nah, I'm like where we are right now, even without updating, it needs a lot more information because I was like, if I could have just schemed this page or schemed the go, I would have like gotten it easier.

But then I also skipped the documentation and assumed that everything would work as expected.

Oh, okay.

Well, I love that.

Like my my list goes, I've got I've got some stuff I'm working on now, which I've been working on for a little while, which is why I haven't updated Neapolitan because it's pending those changes.

Um I've got that to get out, and then Neapolitan will get its kind of um phase two of all those things that I said were on the roadmap that I never did.

Um, my take on, you know, Neapolitan API and things like this that I've people have asked me about, and I'm like, oh, I don't last the thing is I'm loath to just put out a you know, put it out until it's right.

I want the API to be just so how I want it, so that you know, yeah because it it's stable and I like it stable.

And if I'm gonna leverage my projects on it, it has to be stable.

And then the sort of long list of re semi-retirement is to, you know, improve the the story for other people who don't know Django so well.

But I do appreciate the fact that it actually did cred really well, other than the customization that we I had to actually do and override like different tags and everything else.

It did it did work well.

So I applaud you for that.

But everything else, like getting on boarded and everything else, it was like, nah.

Okay, okay.

Actually, I think this year it's getting a little bit easier.

I was gonna I was gonna say, as you're talking, Carlton, I think the key to Neapolitan, just like Django itself, is like Django was built to solve a real world real world problem, right?

That's what Jacob and um Adrian would say and Simon, right?

And and you yourself, you're using Neapolitan yourself, right?

It's not some academic thing.

And I so I think that just bleeds through with like it's actually meant to solve a problem, and that's the North Star.

Um, and that's where a lot of these other projects fall flat, maybe is they're just done to be interesting, as opposed to like, nope, this solves this solves my problem, and I'm using it in my my business.

And therefore

And there are bits I've got in the Word project that I haven't yet outsourced back to near portum because of these other changes that I want to get out of here.

Like, it's not just

And I and then my current self just has to walk along it.

And it's like, oh wow, yeah, thank you, me.

Well plus me.

It was like when I had a a problem and I would type the question, I would pull up a tutorial, I wrote on it asking the question exactly the same way.

And it's sort of like this like, you know, doppelganger thing.

I'm like, aha, like interesting.

I phrased it exactly the same way four years later.

I mean, enough time passed that I forgot that I knew that, but I still uh I still had it.

He wants it there available for him in the future when he's got the same problem again.

And I I really like that.

Projects and books.

Yeah.

So projects, I think you're gonna discuss Django Debug Toolbar since you're a maintainer.

Shout out to Django Debug Toolbar.

You all use it.

You know, I still run into people sometimes at Django meetups who've never heard of

it, yeah.

And so I helped maintain the toolbar with Tim, Matthews, and Elinita.

So we're like a team of four.

And right now, what interesting thing I'm working on for the project is the redesign phase because I realized that I think I'm the most proud from all of us, I'm like more passionate about making sure everything looks good and feels good.

And so that's where we are.

We're trying to, we're starting out with like revamping our logo.

So you might be seeing a new logo in a few months in your apps.

And we're also trying to figure out what the next steps are because you want to do like an end-to-end design from getting our own colors, getting the themes that we like, and seeing if we could also like improve our documentation as well, and maybe build out a website.

Who knows where this is going to go?

But yeah, I'm excited about it because now I had to I had to do like everything.

I had to figure out where we're going to get designers, who do we want to get involved?

And like open source design is like one of the hardest things to do because it's open source, so I'm not going to pay you for your time.

And I feel bad about that because I do think like designers are God's favorites because I don't know how you pull ideas from thin air and just like create something beautiful and have people enjoy it.

So I'm like, I would I would love to pay you, but right now I can't.

So we're having a lot of back and forth right now to figure out what the next steps are, what colors we're are we looking at, what does that say to a user?

Because we also need to be mindful of what the user's mental model is when they look at the Django De Baktobar.

And so it's like, mm, I'm picking up design skills on the side, I'm like, oh, open source for the win.

And I'm like, oh, how long does it take ideally?

Like it's not true at all.

It's dealing with people, like there's no prompt that can deal with people.

Or if you're not liking the design, why are you not liking it?

Right?

Because it's like, yeah, everything needs to be good, but we also need to define what good means to me that's different to the maintainers and to the designer as well.

So it's like a weird, I don't know, it's like a nice spot to be at where we're like all thinking about like almost the same thing and being like, oh, but when I look at green, I see this.

When I look at orange, I see that.

And it's like, wow, we all see color very differently, and we all like different colors as well.

And it's like, yeah, it's like also getting to the user's perspective and being like, oh, this is gonna be too smart for the user, or this is going to be like enough of the user.

Because I think there's a statement that Jeff likes to use every time I do like very complex things.

He's like, No, that's too smart.

We do not do too smart things.

You need to like

That's yeah, you have to be very wise to dumb it down a little bit.

That's not the point.

So, from my experience, what I try to do is I give them a task.

I say, accomplish this thing with this tool and talk out loud.

And that's better than just like showing them two designs and be like, which one do you like better?

They're just like they have no idea.

But if I'm like, okay, go from here to here, um, that seems to work better because people can't articulate anything.

So I was like, pimple is always better, right?

So I'm like, right now I have like a little Jeff in my in my head making it.

Too smart for us, yeah.

That'd be amazing.

Yeah.

We're also going to get veterans who've been using Django for the longest time, and I know those friends are gonna have a lot more opinions, and I'm like, that's fine, but I need to make sure that everybody is somehow happy.

I might not get everybody very happy, but somewhat happy is is good.

So that's what I'm saying.

I mean, so you yeah, you gotta draw the line somewhere.

But if it's just like random being like, oh, interesting colour, or I don't like that color, I'm like, okay, any suggestions you have, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We'll be open to getting more contributors.

There are also new issues that you could work on, and you could reach out to me or anybody else on GitHub.

We're pretty nice.

We're not mean, we're nice, we are accommodating, so you could reach out and start making an issue.

Carlton, you have one, another one from Adam Hill, I think.

So we had Adam on last episode, and he's just ne non-stop as we discussed with him last time.

But he's um got a new project, Django LSP.

So a language server, language server protocol in Django.

It's I don't know, support um order complete for your um settings.

For I think he's getting into models, he's looking, he's looking at all sorts.

It's another several of these now.

There's like that one, Josh Josh Thomas, who's got um another one.

He's got uh Django Language Server, which he's got um completions.

There's another one which is um Django template LSP.

So there are several in this space, as well as um what is it?

The hang on, I can't think it, it's called um Zuban, which is a language server written by the guy who did Jedi.

So the uh Gemma Jedi is the um long time static analysis and auto-complete library for Python.

He's written a new version in Rust that's got Django model support as well, and it just goes to show that you know you can do tooling for dynamic libraries.

Yes, they leverage stubs where stubs are available, but you know, they also are doing custom logic to get those autocompletions in these other places, and it's not like we have to rewrite the whole language in Rust in order to get decent autocomplete in Python.

It's really exciting time.

So there's four there, but the Adam's one came up this week, and I was like, wow, him and Josh need to get together in the room.

Um Adam's got his Djangles project and Josh has got his um Django Bird project, and then they've both got language servers.

It's like, do we need some sort of celebrity deathmatch at Django contest which one we're gonna use or something?

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

There were three leading ones at the time and borrowed from one another, and then South from Andrew Godwin was decided.

But you know, there were three really strong ones done.

gonna be the same with APIs, and it's you know, you know, it's it's a sign of fertility.

It's not a bad thing when there are multiple options in the ecosystem.

And I mean I didn't know that about migration, so I I learned something.

Oh good, yeah, yeah.

And when you when Carlton said Jedi, my mind went to Star Wars.

I was like Star Wars.

Yeah, yeah.

So um Russell Keith McGee did one of one of the three.

Um Andrew Godwin did one, and I'm sorry, I forget who the third one, but there were three big ones at the time, and I I'm pretty sure there's some talks that I think Russell and and Andrew have been about.

There was something I saw where they went into the history of it.

Um it's taken me a while to sort of piece that all together, too.

So um sorry to the third one.

We'll look you up.

Um, for me, packages Django link check, which checks broken links on your Django site, goes through your models.

Um pretty cool.

I should use it more.

Uh and I actually was thinking of it because I was looking through something recently and I saw a broken link, and I was like, oh.

Um so this is a long-running um project, and it doesn't have a ton of stars, but like we all have broken links in our stuff, so check it out.

Seems pretty mature.

Um and then I'll switch to books.

I'll go first.

I'm gonna pick a lightweight one.

This is called A History of the Bible by John Barton, who I think is uh what is he?

He's like a Cambridge or Oxford professor.

One of those Oxford.

Um but actually interesting.

So treating the Bible not you know as a religious text per se, but as a book and talking about the different authors and how it's interpreted in um Judaic and Christian traditions.

Anyways, sort of nerdy, but I like that kind of stuff.

And this is actually my mom's copy.

I mentioned my mom's really into this stuff.

I mentioned my mom, I was like, this book sounds good, and she's like, I've got a copy.

So um Wow.

Little little light reading.

And is it like just from my translations and

The different authors and stuff.

And to me, it like enriches whatever your belief system is to know about these things.

Um so yeah.

Uh we'll we'll see.

I don't mind reading.

I think I've probably shared uh but yeah, but I I I'm a fan of studying anything.

Um I know I've actually I have been reading a bunch this year, so I just finished a couple books and I was like, should I do a write-up?

And I was like, eh, kind of lazy.

But I was like, oh, there's some Yeah, this is like the post-LLM world, like just the exercise of writing an essay forces you to come to terms with your own thoughts.

And yeah, you know, there's uh I'm sure it solidifies a book in my head to do even a quick take on it.

Um like for example, I just finished um Normal People by Sally Rooney, which I know is like a big thing, and I had thoughts about it.

So um yeah, maybe I'll do that.

My TLDR is I I enjoyed it.

I think I would love it if I was 25.

At 45, I couldn't help but being like, she's so 25.

But um I mean, you know, come on.

All right, anyways, uh Carlton, you have a you have a book.

It's on GitHub, so uh we'll put the link in the show notes, but it's called Python Mastery.

Um and you just own it and there's a PDF and you there's a whole folder full of exercises, and you sit down with your you you look through the the PDF and you sit down with your editor and you write the thing by hand and it gets into all of the tasty bits of Python, which is

It's practical Python is the name of the object.

And I I really recommend it.

He's also got an introductory one for people who just want to learn Python, um, which is worth checking out as well.

But that's not the one that I'm super interested in.

I'm super interested in Python mastery, which is about these more dynamic aspects of the thing.

I know you know people are more interested in static types and and whatnot, but I think actually what's Python's superpower?

Well, you know.

Yeah, I agree.

But um this one's called Python Mastery.

And the the reason I wanted to recommend it, because we talked to time and time again about LMMs and them to, you know, they taking over the role of coding and then dumbing us down, and it's like, well, okay.

But if if we stopped going out and doing manual labor, so we need to go to the gym to keep fit.

Well, here's a way of doing some mental exercise to keep your programming chops and learning something which is perhaps a little left field that you wouldn't do in your day-to-day work, but is really gonna make you a better Python programmer.

Belder, you've got a book.

I do.

And this book is gut-wrenching, but it does he writes beautifully, and you get to have like a history of how Afghanistan was, and he's also American, so he has both perspectives, and you see how they were, like how people's lives were.

Well, yeah, how people's lives were before the war, after the war, people who moved, how the different culture and customs, some of them were maintained, others weren't.

And it follows one particular person who goes through a lot of things, a lot of gut-wrenching things.

So it's if you want to know, it's like as I said, historical fiction.

So most of the places actually do exist.

The places that he mentions actually do exist, but yeah, it gives you a different perspective of like things, specifically in Afghanistan, being also from like a place where it's war-torn and it's it's gut-wrenching, to be honest.

So I would say you read it at your own risk, but the literature like the literature itself is very rich in terms of how the user tells you the story, the the perspective he gives you the story at, and how he builds up like anticipation of one of the things that's going to be really impactful in the book, and how he referenced it it at the at the end as well.

And it's so good, it's so good, it is so good.

I like it because it's like it's a fic it's fiction, but it it also has some history, and it's like half the things I thought would happen didn't happen, but they happened in a different way, and which is like more mind-blowing.

I'm like, wow, wow.

But yeah, I'm trying to read more of Khalid Husini's work because he has written other books like A Thousand Splendid Sons and Something About the Mountain Moved or something.

But yeah, I'm gonna take a timeout before I pick up his next book because that was just too much.

But I'm not really relaxed with it.

So I'm like, I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna pick up other books in like two, three months, and then I'll I'll get back to the a thousand splendid sons.

But I highly recommend.

Apply that wand liberally.

So code, community, docs, packages, podcasts, whatever, what would you improve?

Like in terms of we've been trying to like either build out the website page or improve like how our interface looks and stuff like that.

And I feel like we need, I don't know if it's the time that we need to shorten the process of or how all these things work, but yeah, if we could change like the timings of what we're doing to like a little bit hasten the process.

So we're not talking about a website in like two, three years still, and nothing's changed is something I'd like to improve.

So don't come at me.

I am still in the company.

No, no, no, no, no.

Agreement, agreement.

I I wish more people also like get involved.

I wish we also have a lot more money.

Well, I'd say time and money.

I'd give Django a lot more money and I'd give it time to hasten the process.

So I'm like, yeah.

Other than that, I think everything else we have it like nailed on and spot on.

I am slightly optimistic on this point.

Um, I know you know Jeff is the Jeff Triplett is the new Django president, there's a new board, they're doing a lot of things behind the scenes.

Um PyCharm JetBrains is doing some sponsorship stuff.

I know there's ongoing efforts to actually have an executive director.

So um I I just want to mention that I know I know firsthand people are working really hard on this, and I do think things are gonna come to fruition, but it takes longer than if was one person and you know VC funding.

So Yeah.

And so, you know, you you've got your nice project plan and you assign a low resource, the date flies out.

Yeah.

But yeah, time and money, time and money.

If we had that, we'll it just be we'll be going on We would rule the world.

We'll be going to Mars and Jupiter and be like, hey, Django is there too.

Heat death of the universe, Django will still be there.

Um anyways, thank you so much for making the time um and for coming on.

Again, it feels like God, what episode is this?

190 something.

We should have had you on earlier, but so glad you you could make that.

We were trying, we were trying for a while.

So it's part of the scheduling.

You were busy and there was stuff last year.

Yeah, yeah.

Um we can't tell her that, Carlton.

That's you know, it's like I remember my parents saying, Oh, when I grow up, and I was like, What are you talking about?

You're so old, and now I'm living it, and I'm like, oh god, like you don't know anything.

But it's to be discovered, right?

You can read about it, but then you have to live it.

I I love hanging out with you.

Yeah, no, also.

This is how you just a meteor, you know, 2023 to now.

And yeah, I'd also love to work with either of you on like open sourcing things.

And yeah, I'd I'd really

So if you did it, he would probably is that fair to say Carlton?

Lazy is not the right word.

I just haven't ever had

I'm guilty into it.

I'm asked you for that.

That is valuable.

What what I find frustrating is when people turn up and they've got no familiarity with the project, they're not using it, and then they suggest something which you know these increasingly these days is come out of a machine.

It's like, no, that's not helpful.

Um experience turning up and making a contribution.

Maybe a maybe when you have a small lull, a RevSis official blog post on client stuff using open source tools, referencing Neapolitan, just sort of throw that

Yeah, I mean, I when I was getting frustrated, Jeff was like, go talk to Carlton or make a PR to his whatever documentation and get it done.

And then when he saw you at the at the conference before I did, he was like, That's the person you should drag.

And I was like, I just I'm meeting him for the first time.

I don't want to be like, hey, I hate it.

Don't be shy, don't be shy.

We can talk all day.

Yes, okay.

Yeah, sorry.

Bye bye.

Bye.