Transcript: Greening Django - Chris Adams

Hi, welcome to another episode of Django Chat, a fortnightly podcast on the Django web framework.

I'm Carlton Gibson, joined as ever by Will Vincent. Hello, Will.

Hi, Carlton.

Hello, Will. And this week we've got Chris Adams with us. Chris, I don't know how quite

to introduce you, Chris, but I first saw you at a DjangoCon where you gave an absolutely

mind-blowing talk about greening Django and environmental impact of tech and all of these

things so i'm hoping that's what we're going to talk about today uh i i think so but uh i i'll be

honest i'm a fan of the show and i'm quite happy to be on here so uh i'm happy to follow your lead

but if we know about climate tech and stuff i'm totally on board with that that works for me

super good thank you for coming on um i guess look let's get into the um climate stuff momentarily

because that is just an amazing topic but we always ask and we want to know how did you get

into Django and what's your backstory give us your sort of your origin story okay um my origin

story when I came into programming I actually took a bit of a kind of like a artsy media route

actually so I initially studied things like biology chemistry and maths uh with the idea

of maybe being a doctor or something I totally got distracted by like photography and like computer

games and all these other things in high school and I ended up getting really into media instead

as a result and i didn't realize you could even study that so i did that for a couple of years

and uh then i ended up doing going to university to do a course called contemporary media practice

whatever that is brilliant brilliant and uh we ended up doing uh i learned all about how to you

had to make films with an actual bolex camera that you wound like you see people in world war

two style movies we did um uh like digital video and uh we also did this thing called digital

because it's like uh i think early 2001 2002 so playing around with flash and stuff that was my

exposure to like computers and things like that and okay okay that was kind of going to there and

i ended up working i took a very kind of antsy route into this and uh at the same time i was

kind of getting interested in the whole notion of people talking about vlogging and the whole kind

of whatever that kind of whatever the closest thing that might have been to a scene i suppose

around this in London back in the early 2000s and I got involved in things like digital civil

liberties and as a result I ended up a lot of the kind of artistic practice went into that so I

ended up working on a couple of wacky projects so we would do things like make films or do

photography projects but the thing that I did for my final year project was basically build what you

might recognize as something that looks a bit like a Russian dash cam these days but with an

insurance process built into it so uh it was it was designed as a kind of like comment about the

whole kind of like startup tech scene i suppose partly because we had a lecturer who was his name

was richard barbrook and he taught us all about this it was a particular course called media

freedom so we talk about who owned media and things like that and so you learn a little bit

about what kind of privacy laws were and what laws were tied to things like say copyright and stuff

and the thing I realized when you're looking through this was that there was a load of really

interesting and I don't know quite I get like pressing now I suppose discourse about like the

impact of tech on society and stuff and we ended up building like this dash cam with the idea that

we would create a kind of like faux mock startup around this with the idea that um what's the best

way of describing it um yeah I maybe I should step back to talk about where I lived at the time

because that might help so I used to live in a pretty rough part of town and generally when you

were driving you wouldn't want to like be for someone or something like that because there was

a lot of agro around there and we we end up at the time I used to live with my mum because I was

quite young and I'd see her get really really frustrated with this so as I so I basically

built a tool which was literally like a little linux box uh this is for my art project by the

way that run on the cigarette lighter in the car was hooked into a kind of cheap webcam and a usb

dongle and uh and a big fat guitar pedal that you could you could like hit and the idea was you'd

be driving around and when someone cuts you up instead of like screaming at them and endangering

your life you pull over and just like mash this button like oh god i can't believe i'm so angry

and then by the time you get home it'll take that video upload it into the cloud and then

basically send a do some number plate recognition and then expose that as a fee to the person's

insurance company so they get priced off the road for driving like a terrible person and the idea

behind this was that okay this is an idea around this is the direction we're going to heading to

be heading towards and uh the we built this and we thought this was actually an awful thing to

build because it's everyone so this was the start of their kind of like artistic statement so we

after building this we figured well there's i do called things like prior art right so what we did

was we uh as because i was an art student i basically opened this open sourced all this

and then we showed it literally in an art gallery so it's literally prior art to make it really

really hard to patent and from there i kind of got into like i guess like artsy techie stuff from

there because it seemed like just a really interesting uh field to be working in and

that was kind of what I wanted to work in from that's kind of what got me into tech I suppose

yeah that's a great opener because I didn't have you down as like um a founding person

well uh I was um the open right open rights group in the UK they're a bit like the UK version of the

EFF and I was the first ever intern at org and I was like designing all their leaflets and things

back in the early 2000s as well uh partly I mean like the purpose of the art project was deliberately

to start a conversation around this kind of stuff because it felt like oh yeah there's all these

words like surveillance which is like bottom-up surveillance but at the same time there's a whole

discourse about okay who gets to be the people doing this anyway this is a bit of a divergent

but that's kind of how i got into tech and playing this stuff yeah okay and so well it's not divergent

it's brilliant it's exactly what we asked for but so how did how did you find jang okay so

where the tribal stuff happens so when i was initially working with that uh i was a that was

roughly around rails was starting to become like this cool thing and in my final years at university

i was like doing we didn't really do much like the coding we did do was like dream weaver and

action script or stuff and uh i kind of bought a book like agile web development with rails

and i was like um a guy who was working with me he was a board cog cog cog science student

cognitive science student who thought chris the stuff you're doing sounds more interesting than

stuff i'm doing so i'll help you on your digital project because it sounds like a laugh yeah so he

did all the kind of crunchy c stuff and like learning with servers and i tried to do some

the front end design bits and uh that was ruby and rails so i learned a bit from there and then

after graduation i i got on really well with this guy his name is uh fred fix we set up a company

together and uh we said we're only going to work on wacky open source make the world a better place

techie stuff and uh he so i defaulted to doing i get like front end stuff when he did a bit of like

Rails and then the space we're in there was actually there was another agency who'd been

doing a bunch of Django work I think it was like 0.96 back then and like you share an office and

I was like oh what are you doing oh that sounds cool uh what are you doing oh we do this um is

there any chance you could help us out because I can see you guys can code and like uh my friend

Fred he could code in Python and I could do some front-end so I got my first exposure to Django

back in 2008, Django 0.96, only working in the front end whilst I was working with other people

who did all the backend. And this was before we had like migration. So people would like screw

you like, Hey, we're going to kind of, we're going to change the databases. Can you like

paste this SQL file to like, we had all that horrible stuff. So that was my way into Python

and Django. So that was like 2008. So, oh my God, that does age me, doesn't it? Wow. Yeah.

Was that templates or are you dealing with an API from Django?

I was mainly working at the template level

because the thing I really liked as someone working with the two

was that it felt very, very comfortable for me.

Whereas when I did the equivalent back then, working in Rails,

I had to learn all these other bits.

It felt very much more opinionated around Ruby.

So I was doing front-end stuff, really.

And from there, I did a bit more Python work.

And then I think my first proper Python project was I went from there to working in Twisted, which I found extremely difficult because, well, yeah, there's asynchronous stuff and all this event based stuff, which was, oh, God, really hard for a media study student to get their head around.

Or at least this media study student to get their head around.

That just is hard.

I mean, that just is hard.

Andrew Godwin says it's hard, so I believe him.

So on that front, I love that project, though, because that's.

that so when people email me about my my books and stuff and the projects they want to build

often it's it's something like that it's like well i want to have a back end and an api and i want

this and i want this and i want this and it just sounds like impossibly complicated to me but i'm

thinking about how to actually build it as opposed to like yeah you could you know like and you just

step by step through it um so i yeah i love that that's it's like you're not constrained by like

that sounds hard it's like oh like it's tech like it could be done it what in it can be done right

you just got to find the tools and work backwards to to the end goal yeah i was in this case i was

extremely lucky to have someone who was both bored and really really good at computers who kind of

would help me so i came up with like the name and like the general like wacky concept in the end we

called it grassroots as in like you would grass someone up on route to somewhere like that was

kind of the it was like a multi-layered kind of artsy pun stuff you had to explain it yeah that's

a very that's that's a very artsy pun so we had a bunch of stuff like that so yeah that was it it

was um you don't know what you don't know so you could have uh jump in and when you're like that

young you don't need to sleep as much as you might do now when i'm like closer to 40 so yeah it was

a it was a learning experience and in some ways so nice yeah closer to 40 i gotta tell you i just

turned 40 this year and carlton can attest it's all you're just picking up momentum

i'm just getting further away yeah well it's like my grandfather used to say it would be 85

because he lived to 99 there you know wow okay right so that's your start but then that's still

a long way so you're you've kind of got into um build building apps we're building web web

applications in the early 2000s a common common thing to happen but then many many years later

not many years later probably 10 years later i saw you or eight years later i saw you giving

talk about environmentalism so what's the transition so the transition has largely been

uh i guess i've been following the subject and having to pick up the tech along the way

for most of the things so i ended up after i mean i me and my friend fred we set up a company did

that and then uh we didn't really know how to manage the expectations the commercial side

uh all these other things and doing all these wacky projects like another one we did was

access control for a co-working space so uh with a bunch of open source software written in python

the twisted thing so we built a door a daemon called door d which would make the door could

and it would read like rfid cards and the idea being that when you walk in it would check against

an LDAP directory, but also

it could play your theme music. It could play

any kind of mp3.

I actually had that

very same idea where I did my graduate

study. We had all these rooms and I was like,

people would come in late, so they put you in groups

and I was like, wow, we all

need to have

our theme music.

I can't remember what it was now,

actually.

Because if you ever, probably both of you

haven't, but if you see an American baseball game

when the batters come out, they all have theme music.

So like that's sort of the, and like a lot of times it's just something generic,

but often they have fun with it, especially here in Boston with the Red Sox.

So they'll just play ridiculous things.

So they actually have entrance music every time they come out.

It's like a 15 second little clip as they, you know, grab their crotch.

That's, oh, wow.

That's pretty cool.

I didn't know, I didn't know that happened.

So, um, that was, so, so answer the question, Carlton, that was, um, me doing a bit of Python

stuff and I learned basically why it's not a good idea to put a Linux box connected to

building onto the public internet with ssh access like we further down that we have people saying

like hey why is your door sending me spam right because you had like things like that that we

realized but anyway that's another story so i went to bits of like python and then after doing that

for a while uh i me and fred we kind of like decided to wind up that work and then i took a

job at an agency where i at an agency called headshift where i was working as an operations

person because in all this stuff here i gradually learned basically all these difficult painful

lessons on my own money on how not to run servers and then by then i kind of had uh you know enough

scar tissue to kind of work in that so i ended up working as a kind of like junior operations

analyst system administration dog's body person and then in about six months i ended up being

moved into i think like consulting basically so i end up being the person to i don't lead on as a

kind of solutions architect kind of person largely because i could talk to humans and talk about

technology at the same time and that was useful that's a nice niche to have right yeah so we did

that and then i ended up working on like a number of projects and had to kind of hire teams to get

that stuff done so there's a bunch of like drupal projects and wordpress projects and then like bits

of chef uh devopsy stuff and then um i i there were some projects which i didn't really like

working on partly through because of technology choices and i basically said look if you put me

in another one of these projects i will quit and they put me in another one of those projects and

i quit and uh so i ended up moving to another company what was called amy that stood for

avoid mass extinction engine which was one of the companies i'd idolized when i was younger

and they were basically trying to work out the carbon footprint of everything and i was

working as a rails developer for them so my first work as like a ruby coder and then i worked with

them for like a year and a half and i saw what changes when vc companies when companies raised

too much vc and then realized oh god now we're gonna have to monetize or figure out how to

make back the returns inside three years or so so i did that and then after 18 months i

basically decided to go off on my own again as a kind of independent consultant and at that same

time a friend of mine who had been doing a bunch of Django work he was like Chris um this is one

project this is called demand logic which is turning into a proper company now can you help

me out because I know that you've gone freelance recently so uh I basically did that I ended up

working with him and then we did a kind of transition process and that was me going back

into working with Django again back after 2008 and it was really nice because I had a background

with rail snap by that point and then i really appreciated lots of the ideas that were also

implemented in in django and there's lots of things that i really like that i didn't see like

the whole kind of notion of forms in django is really really lovely and that was something that

wasn't so well developed in rails for a long time and then i ended up staying with python because

i found the explicitness much easier for me to kind of keep inside my head and then ended up

working on that and then ended up I think proposing ideas to conferences because I figured

we should probably should be talking about climate given that we're in a climate emergency and like

you know you listen to kind of fellow travelers or trusted messengers so this seemed like a way

to do that and also i really liked the kind of django community back from like the pycon days

back in 2008 so i ended up thinking like what if i'm going to be if i'm going to join one community

django seems like the nicest and a really nice community and uh where did we speak i can't

remember was it in denmark or was it in italy it must have been italy must have been florence

that i first saw yeah and it just blew me away because you were like because obviously climate

change had come on the agenda um but i didn't know anything about it really and you know okay

we've got to stop using cars and we've got to i don't know we've got to stop but you were like no

look you can choose to put your servers you can have greener servers and you can spin down some

servers when you're not using them and you can massively reduce the comfort of your project and

actually this is doable and it's like you know it's doable for you on the projects that you work

con to try and consult this and i was just like wow that that is that is amazing and then obviously

talk to you afterwards and that was your first django con carlton right yeah that was my first

that was an amazing django con i went to florida well because i've been in the django using django

forever but just sort of sort of and i've been contributing to django rest framework for ages

but i was kind of like just goes to codes type thing you know i was on the mailing list but that

was about it and I'd never been to a DjangoCon or a PyCon or any of these things and then I went to

DjangoCon Europe because it was in Florence and I went I'm going there and that sounds amazing

and I was just blown away by you know the the talks and the people and the just everything

why haven't I been coming to this for years it's just absolutely the most foolish thing in the

world to miss DjangoCon anyway that's that was my that was how we met Carlton right you came to my

talk and yeah you very politely after the talk pointed out a couple things i had wrong you know

because me i would have raised i would have raised my hand in the q a probably hopefully not now but

i i was like wow that was really you know and also i was like wow this is like a maintainer

you know this is like you know like in tron it's like a user you know you're coming up and talking

to me so it personalized everything i did want to so just we can jump hang on yeah i was gonna

jump around go ahead finish the the thought no well no i just wanted to um before we move on and

go deeper into that sort of stuff i really do want you to you know educate us here chris but

um i just wanted to ask switching back to django from rails what was the thing she missed like

you know there's lots of things that django does right but what was like you know rails has this

and that's really nice that we you know we don't have in general this is going to sound quite

strange but the thing that i appreciated there being an abundance of in rails was actually the

tutorials the really high quality videos and education educational support material so that

you could be a few days ahead of being found out right and the other thing that was actually quite

nice was that the i found the rails guides documentation absolutely stellar and when i

i mean it was probably because i had 10 years difference between these two but i found that

when i was first coming to a lot of the kind of django documentation i wasn't able to make so

much sense of it because i wasn't so confident in python at the time yeah whereas with the rail

stuff i found it a bit easier for me to like copy and paste and kind of get to a sense of confidence

I suppose. So those are some of the things that I found. And I guess one other thing that was a

really big thing, which I really appreciated in Rubyland was a CLI tool called pry, which was

very, which was, it made messing around on the command line, like you would with using IPython

or rich, it made it really nice. And it gave you a really lovely experience. And it took a while

for me to find some things like that. But I think those are the main things that and the testing

and back in i guess like early 2010s was the confusion around what testing tools to use

there wasn't like rails and rspec in this i mean rails had rspec and a few a few very very clear

things whereas in python i was like doing a bit in nose doing a bit of pi test doing a bit in

something else i mean that feels like it's bedded down a lot more now but i found myself a bit

confused yeah at that stage yeah i think i can buy into that last point certainly like

you know should i be using nose what's what's so good about it like yeah how is it any different

from what you know is there's no guidance there um i think that's true what you said about rails

with the beginner friendly it's that's certainly the the case i mean in part because i think jango's

docs are really good but in terms of official tutorials there's jango girls polls is

i mean it's an interesting thing because i have my own stuff and i would just as soon

take like the very beginner stuff and be like well here's three you know three here's an official

hello world here's an official crud you know but the docs are i probably like someone should do

that and like i could do that but it's like it's the polls tutorial is sort of this almost like

original source and no one's really written those things so i feel like it would i feel like which

is to say i think it would be stronger for django if there were more than one official tutorial and

probably i'm positioned to make something happen on that front but there's this like hive mind of

django i and someone else haven't but i think having you know because right now people go to

polls and they sort of get like they probably get confused unless they've done something web

before and then they go to django girls or maybe they find my stuff but in terms of django itself

would probably be stronger to have some yeah more tutorials as opposed to just docs um yeah i think

once you you're right once you're in you that you appreciate the extensiveness of the of the

django docs but when you're working your way in is a little bit more difficult and like to be honest

i really think that okay you think how much your typical django developer gets paid all right and

then you think about how much it would cost to hire like an editor like someone who's actually

got specialist skills in this field.

Like, I kind of feel like these are things that it's a case of us deciding to allocate

some funds to have people with the correct expertise to do this stuff and maybe with

a different perspective than what we might have, because a lot of us are really, really

comfortable with them.

And we're coming from a different place of people who are just coming to this for the

first time.

So, yeah, I think there's something like that.

I mean, Carlton, you've been working with someone on Google Summer of Docs.

yes we had the season project last year which went which was good and you know we we restructured the

beginning of the contributing guide and there's a bit more work to go on there to make it more but

like that was a nice thing but i think there's there's room i think for you know a full-time

not full-time but like a professional um uh what they call technical writer professional technical

writer to you know be funded to do you know a much more substantial amount of work on the

janga docs i think it is the introductory level because you know the reference level it's perfect

but those those tutorials and how-to levels they're not quite as as rich for simple reason

it's really hard to write those and time consuming and yeah i can i can i can attest to that i mean

on some level it should just like i mean i already give away the first like few chapters of all my

books like this is me being incredibly biased but like you want something like that like kind of

just copy and paste it over but i can't i can't do that because i'm on the board i'm i'm conflicted

someone else should come in and write something like that but you know django hello world django

crud maybe django off something um and you know the issue is i mean we've talked about this in

the show is, you know, the Django board is, is volunteers and it's small and like already just

speaking personally, I'm doing way too much right now. It's unsustainable how much I'm doing for

the board. And I think Anna is probably the president in the same boat. So there just needs

to be a way to do that, but I think it would help Django and to have beyond just Django girls. Yeah.

To have those, we probably could even, I mean, we had Eva from the Python software foundation,

You know, there are grants available probably to do something like this, but someone needs to, you know, do all that work to make it happen is the thing.

But maybe someone listening can have a suggestion because I think, you know, and even for me as an educator, I prefer teaching intermediate stuff than the beginner stuff.

I mean, I think it would be stronger for the very beginner stuff to be within Django itself as opposed to having to go to a third party like me and the other, you know, few authors out there.

because even for us like someone yesterday was telling me he was like yeah you know you content

creators make all this money and i was like i was like are you being sarcastic because i can't i

can't tell very via email but it's um i love doing it but like you know i take a discount over just

being an entry-level django developer to do my stuff um so i think that's part of the part of

the issue so anyways long way of saying yeah we should django we should we should we django should

do that and there's probably funding to have someone a technical writer write up those things

to kind of match rails and friendliness for beginners anyways right so oh i wanted to ask

you yes the environment um yeah before we go the environment yes so from where you sit

what do you think like when you see bitcoin is this just like a doomsday engine in terms of like

creating a virtual currency to like use up insane resources and not really do anything

like what is what is your take on it i think uh i this is the thing i have really like whenever

we talk about 10 everyone goes what do you think about bitcoin it's like you know there's a phrase

called r.i.p your mentions when you talk about bitcoin because you know how people you know how

Have you ever seen that kind of meme where people are, say, it's got a proof of the Simpsons

diving in front of someone with like Elon Musk and valid criticism.

You have the same thing with Bitcoin.

People get really, really, really, really emotionally invested in it such that if you

say anything against it, it's very difficult to have any kind of meaningful kind of informed

discussion around it.

But we can.

This is our podcast.

no one's gonna talk yeah yeah we don't we don't this is true we don't have live comments so you

know you've got at least it's a one-way forum watch watch so much if we get comments it'll

absolutely be about bitcoin if i start talking about it all right so generally i think that

there are much better uses of uh all the compute and the resources and everything like that

and uh i i i kind of feel like if you really care about the decentralization aspect of it

then you should be able to decouple the notions of decentralization from proof of work because

the proof of work part which basically creates scarcity when there needn't be scarcity not just

in compute but also now in kind of bandwidth because there's kind of tokenization of bandwidth

and tokenization of storage with Shia every single fundamental building block we use to create

digital services to make the world better there are tools and there are various schemes which

essentially creates scarcity when there needn't be and that pushes up the costs onto literally

everyone else to enrich a small number of people i find that problematic but this is a i if possible

it'd be really nice not to talk about bitcoin for the for the podcast okay i think there are

a lot of you who do a much better job of talking about it and uh there's there's you know we can

talk about basically i think it's really easy for me to get on a on a high horse and start talking

about it and then suddenly the hour's over and i'm like and another thing yeah well let's talk

about climate and django climate and django's history yeah tell us about the the green web

foundation the green and django talk that you did like give us your give us your your yeah okay so

the one thing you mentioned carlton when you said when you saw that talk in 2017 was you know you

felt like oh wow there is a way that this can speak to my i guess things i value as a professional

and as an ideal, like a responsible technologist, right?

And I can see, the way I see it,

like if we're kind of,

if you're over the age of like, say, 18

and you're considered an adult,

you know, we're kind of heading into like,

we're literally in a climate emergency.

Like we have, you know,

more than half of all the kind of local councils in the UK

and lots of places around Europe and in America say,

okay, we need to do something.

You see all these things.

And I kind of feel that we tend not to talk too much

about this as technologists,

because we don't really have the language for using this and i feel that it's kind of what

should be part of your your part of what you consider being a professional is to be aware of

these changes and avoiding and and take steps to avoid needless harm if you are in position of power

when you can make these decisions and that's kind of how i framed it for the django talk specifically

because i kind of feel having a sense of control over your own destiny is really important and i

and that's why i think lots of people respond nicely to the kind of climate jango talks because

they're like oh wow there's things i can do i'm no longer powerless and i think this i think there

was also something interesting at that conference is that later on someone was saying well i'm just

a developer what can i do and i kind of feel well that's like saying someone i'm just someone who

gets paid multiples of the median salary in my place where i'm able to pick and choose my jobs

and able to basically dictate the extent of how I work such that things like 20% time are a thing

or if I get severance it's six months of severance rather than being fired on the spot in many cases

and I feel that like yeah if we're professionals then we should be able to I guess rather than

just kind of like feel bad about this weird kind of dissonance between what we do professionally

and what's happening around us it makes more sense for to align these ways and there are

ways to align this stuff and i think that's a more health healthy way of thinking about this

and also i think if you can frame the stuff that you do in these terms then i guess it makes you

like more fulfilled as a technologist but in many ways the things that you might value as someone

who cares about i guess us moving to an advanced and humane future are the same things you value

as an engineer like you know avoiding needless waste avoiding needless harm yeah all this stuff

here right and it often makes you look like a rock star if you're able to i don't know half the bills

or things you're at or something like that i mean rock star in a good way there no no but you know

what i mean but yeah but exactly like because as well there is this thing that if you are more

efficient you do cut the bills and so you can say well you know we can just keep these servers on

full time and they can be going full blast 24 hours a day seven days a week you know 52 weeks

a year or you know just on the weekends when we get no traffic we could scale down to just have

one of them going so that you know someone turns up the site's still up but you know we don't need

four servers running full capacity on the weekend because we don't get any traffic and like this is

actually i think this is uh why i talk a lot about the aesthetics of this and like i worked with

some friends to make a magazine called branch like okay nerdy sustainability tech gag there but

it was specifically to make kind of like climate exciting and interesting and the thing that you

want to aspire towards and i kind of feel that as i mean when i i didn't actually say this before

but one of the reasons i kind of got interested in django uh was i think in the early 2000s you

meet various people and i think uh i can't remember where i met simon simon willison but i heard about

django for men like we bump into each other i think some of the open rights group style things

and uh from that i met people like tom dyson and these people who i really looked up to

and they were very much like I guess they had a halo effect for the framework that made me want to

go towards that because I thought like the things that were being built like every block and all

these things here which were about okay let's talk about I know journalism in terms of okay

let's address some of these balances of power these seems like really cool important things to do and

And I feel that's kind of where some of this came from.

And like, I think this is the other reason why I ended up speaking

at a lot of the Django stuff, in addition to me being enjoying,

like interested in like the framework and everything is that

I feel like there's a kind of, there's something of a kind

of climate tradition with Django.

I know there are people who have worked on things like this.

So the people who I kind of look up to or had looked up to

for a very long period of time.

So I look at, say, like I would mention like Simon Willison,

Andrew Godwin, Tom Dyson, Natalie Down, I think she's Nat Bat on Twitter.

These are the people who all worked at, say, an organization called Torchbox when they worked on a thing called the Carbon Account,

which was like people trying to work out personal carbon footprint stuff back in 2008.

And they were using Django to build all this stuff.

And now you look at, say, some of the companies that are doing some really, really cool stuff.

Like in the UK in particular, there's a company called Octopus Energy.

They're one of the fastest growing energy companies.

And they also have a really, really lovely style guide, which I can always, always reference when I'm working on projects.

And yeah, that's, you know, there's a climate angle there as well.

And I kind of feel like even when I was in Germany where I work, I worked at a company called Simondo.

And like once we've realized that we need to get off fossil fuels for energy, one of the next problems is figuring out how to heat things or like figuring out heating as a problem.

And like they were working on that, which I worked previously.

And again, that was a big Django thing, Django team.

And I kind of thought that like it makes, Django is a really, really good tool for this,

but also a lot of the aesthetics or the people I look up to seem to be associated with this.

So I figured, yeah, that's a thread I should probably run with that because I figure like

it would be awesome if Django just became the obvious choice to build any kind of client,

the next gajillion dollar climate tech startup or something like that, you know?

And it just feels like because you can reach into data science and because it's so ubiquitous,

it feels like it's a really nice place to have leverage, I suppose.

And there's a really nice scope for cross-pollination as well.

Like there's loads of interesting stuff with like, say, machine learning.

And people figured out that, yeah, machine learning uses huge amounts of electricity for what it's doing.

But there's also responsible scientists and technologists and innovators there.

And there's things like CodeCarbon.io, which is basically a Python context manager

that will basically run a process or run something

than tell you what the carbon footprint of that would be.

And it's initially used for like working out,

say for you to kind of think about

how you might change your machine learning run.

But this is exactly the kind of stuff you might use

to kind of either put into like CI

or anything that can run a process.

Like you could, I can imagine this being tied to say

anywhere you kind of run a Django process

so you can understand what the environmental impact

of that might be so that you can like tune it

and do things like that.

something i really worry about with the django project itself is that we we've got so many

databases and so many supported versions of python and we you know we've got mac and we've got windows

and we've got yeah and so the the big ci runs you know we run the selenium test we run the oracle

test it's like 20 odd 30 ci runs for every commit it's like ah that's well this sounds my idea but

this is like there are ways you can address this problem yeah and uh you can look to what firefox

is doing because okay if django is complicated imagine yeah yeah okay yeah uh there's a really

good post that the firefox team wrote about how they basically used they applied machine learning

to look at the similarities between all these different kind of similarities in their test

matrix their targets right right and uh they basically okay i don't i'm not a data scientist

or a machine learning specialist they did like some ai magic to work out which ones tend to be

like meaningful failures compared to other ones and they were able to like reduce the the ci the

ci runs by more than 90 because like if something uh because like say i think like two versions of

rs10 like if one's going to fail in one then it's probably going to fail in the other one so there's

no point no they were doing some stuff like that basically but they were able to achieve really

of drastic reductions and the use of CI there.

And there's all this space for ingenuity and innovation here.

And I kind of feel like these are the things

that speak to our values as like technologists

and people who want to be building the future.

And I feel like these are the things

that would make sense to make consistent

with how we feel as what we want to do in our day job, really.

And I feel like if we kind of end up building Star Trek

instead of Mad Max along the way,

this is also a win, right?

Like, yeah.

I wonder, I've got the post up

and we'll link to it in the docs.

there's a, there's a great meme on the not sure, not sure a flaky test or broken code, which

is very true. I mean, but I, I almost wonder if we had a list, you know, so if, if someone wanted

to tackle this for Django, like, I almost feel like we should have a list of like, oh, like

millennium problems that someone for summer of code or elsewhere, elsewise wanted to, to tackle.

Cause, um, yeah, maybe that's an interesting idea to, I mean, certainly the, sorry, just to say

like yeah that just how long it takes productivity hit as well as an environmental hit to take so

much time to run tests well this is the thing like there is there is a lot of overlap between

these things here like you can talk about like efficiency uh all the time uh but it's also

important to think about the other things that you kind of value i suppose because we can talk

about how we and i this is one of the things that kind of i guess drew me very much to like the

django community was when i went to the conferences you know there was a sense of inclusion and sense

of camaraderie and community and I I find that I really found that a real plus and when I I ended

up like helping at some of the Django Girls things and I saw how generous people were with their time

and expertise and I thought I definitely really want to be a part of that and again I think that

there's a lot of ideas that I think are really I think we don't celebrate so much or really

appreciate quite so much that we could celebrate more or really kind of make more of a thing of

and i kind of i've got it i'm gonna sound like just a fanboy of like kind of torch boxing people

like this aren't i but i kind of feel like we should we celebrate when we celebrate you know

companies doing a big sale like or raising a bunch of money or vc or set or going to an ipo or

something yeah that's good and everything but i think there's also things when we see people

like okay we're not going to sell on my agency but i'm going to sell it back to the employees

so they can focus on doing really really meaningful work that other that might not

necessarily be as profitable as other work but it's really vital work like i know that torchbox

did something like this recently where they the founders basically took a step back and i thought

like this is the kind of classy move that i wish we would see more of and be celebrating more and

be talking about because i feel like these tie into the ideas of community and things that we

seem to like really value uh when i when i speak to people at conferences and it feels like these

of things are worth being aware of in the same way that when you look at i guess people working

at things like 18f in america or gds these feel like things which are also things that we we do

celebrate but i feel that we could celebrate more because they are like vitally important services

and things which improve the lives of so many people so yeah stuff like that yeah no i mean

then that ties into thoughts and discussions we've had on the dsf members lifts about um

You know, celebrating contributors to Django that are beyond just the code, you know, beyond, oh, so-and-so did some commits and did this feature on the ORM, which, you know, we don't celebrate enough as it is.

But, you know, there's so much more to Django than that.

All the contributors to, you know, putting on a DjangoCon, you know, we don't call them out.

All the people who help at a Django Girls workshop, we don't call them out.

All the people who just are there on the mailing list or the forum that we don't call out.

And the Django community is so much more than just the repo.

And yeah, I mean, to call out cool things

in the ecosystem too, that's, yeah,

it's all part of the same, you know,

we need to recognize that what a great community

we have here and yeah.

Well, there's doing the work and promoting the work, right?

And most people spend their time doing the work,

but it's like, who's going to promote it?

I mean, one of the things I hope that comes out

of this podcast is introducing people

who do fill those roles and calling attention to it

Because there isn't an official Django way to say, hey, here's who organizes these conferences.

Here's who are the people who have done all these things, and this is what they're like.

So it's partly, you know, to get to your question of, you know, owner-occupied, there isn't

really like a, certainly not a monetization, but there isn't a way for someone or some

organization to spend the time to promote things, because that is also a form of work

beyond saying, do come to a DjangoCon, do get involved.

And once you're in the community, you can experience it, but you sort of have to take

that first step to, um, to have it.

But I think, but certainly, certainly everyone on this podcast, you know, is big on the Django

community.

So I think it is the case once you take that first step, whatever, whatever it is.

In any event, I, I did want to call out one thing just in, we have links to your talks,

um, for someone who I wasn't actually aware where I wasn't thinking about this, but the

fact that you have a slide saying the internet is the biggest machine in the world and it mostly

runs on fossil fuels like in the u.s i don't even know how much the internet counts for energy

consumption but i think it's like other percentages out there for like actually so how much is the

internet versus yeah there are you can see percentages and uh there's two things to

remember for this so first of all the internet uh is roughly you can think of it in terms like the

if you read all the academic literature you'll find figures from between one and three percent

of co2 emissions and one percent and like five or ten percent of electricity now it generally

speaking it's i kind of feel that the amount of electricity it uses i'm not that worried in

that's i mean basically it's it's i think it's more useful to think of it in terms of what is

it comparable to right because this helps us figure out like is this a good use of that you

know is it a good deal or is it not a good deal so the internet and like technology in general

it's about two percent of global co2 emissions so that's like roughly all of aviation or all of

shipping right and uh it's also like the equivalent to like i mean if you want to compare it to other

things that's like canada or germany or the okay the increase in emissions from us switching from

mainly cars to mainly suvs is around about the same kind of ballpark right so you think about

okay if i want to have these things consider all the kind of utility i get from this i would say

two percent of emissions uh for all the things that digital does for me is actually a pretty

good deal especially in the middle of a pandemic right when i think about okay switching from cars

to suvs in that same time period and it being the same kind of footprint i feel that's slightly less

of a good deal right and i kind of feel like this is why you need to think about what you're

comparing it to and the other thing to bear in mind is that we need to get this to zero right

so even if it isn't a huge amount the scale of the challenge ahead of us is that we need to get to

zero emissions by okay the as soon as possible but most governments are saying that the 20 2050

the absolute latest and in in america it's like half you know 50 by 2030 so we not we it's not

a case of it just being level it's having to get down to something like that and uh the good news

is that technology assuming you're not going to be doing something silly with proof of work-based

currencies right you can actually it does feel like it's you know you're moving in the right

direction like i'd say tech is actually pretty good for a bunch of this stuff and if you're

going to talk about you wouldn't necessarily be talking about the environment the carbon footprint

of tech so much is like what who are we choosing to enable and what behavior are we which needs are

we choosing to prioritize because these are the decisions that are probably going to have much

farther reaching implications but at the same time it's kind of a professional hygiene thing to like

not be running your all your infrastructure on fossil fuels if you can help it because

it's needlessly causing harm like it's something in the order of like one in five early deaths

comes from burning fossil fuels so even if you don't talk about carbon emissions there's still

all these needless deaths which happen just because we've got this on this destructive default that we

can and should be fixing okay so there's a good example that you've brought up running my

infrastructure on fossil fuels right so but i go to i go to cloudprovider.com um you know forward

slash provision and i i click my instance there's no column for you know um renewable power this is

a yeah i don't how do i so how do i find how do how do i as a as a developer say right i'm gonna

i'm gonna provision this cluster usually so there's a few things this data center is easier

now so i mentioned codecarbon.io as one example they do some really cool stuff where they'll

basically look at the kind of job that you just did and then say well this is what the carbon

footprint would have been all these other regions which we can find on our list of cloud providers

and ThoughtWorks recently did some have released a project called cloud carbon footprint which

basically will plug into your AWS Google cloud or Microsoft billing tools and will basically tell

you this and say well if you are running you know this is what the carbon footprint of your job is

of like down to like service level so you have these figures out there but it's generally right

now only the huge companies provide these kinds of numbers right now and it feels like there's a

need for other ones because you know healthy ecosystems are diverse ecosystems and uh we had

the discussion before about okay well there's also the idea that these are the cloud providers who

a very very efficient but they're also the people who are the absolute leaders in accelerating the

extraction of fossil fuels which we burned uh which have these problems further down and right

now we have no way of decoupling the cool stuff from the bad stuff like accelerating fossil fuels

or not paying taxes and i kind of feel that this is something that we tend not to talk about too

much and i feel like there is something that we can actually address by if by basically i think

the phrase i used uh was stacktivism rather than activism right thinking about okay well if you're

going to do this what steps can you take and like amazon have been on the record saying if you care

about this please use the green regions more and like they are moving but they're only moving as

fast as they really need to and i also feel that like it kind of feels like wait so suddenly the

cost of a migration is on me to move all my stuff because you a trillion dollar company aren't in a

hurry to make these changes and i feel like while we're stuck with no way of moving away from this

i kind of feel it's very difficult to have much leverage and i feel like this is a thing about us

being more strategically aware as professionals about what we who who we're enabling when we do

this kind of stuff or at least be able to talk about and say well this is a real priority for us

please do something to do this because i'm not saying that we should disengage but

even engaging i don't think there are that many developed people who are even engaging at this

point or know how to start these conversations yeah well i think it's going to have to i mean

as you said it's going to have to come from the consumers who say you know this is important to me

and that will feed back at least the american companies they're not you know they care about

the bottom line so if customers care they'll add it but so this is the thing so this is one thing

that's kind of interesting for us and there's loads of really useful research around this

so we often think in terms of this has to come from consumers first but in many ways it's much

more of a kind of symbiotic thing where in say the let's look at accessibility for example

accessibility is another case where there's lots of people who are who have been previously shut

out from services which would improve their lives and it wasn't necessarily consumers who were able

to get this it was a concerted effort by professionals saying no accessibility is important

but also speaking to the people who procure and say these are the things you need to ask for like

having something like the WCAG the web content authoring guidelines these make it easy for people

who write checks to say you need to make this accessible otherwise we're not going to do this

work and like this was this was initially pioneered by public sector so uh and then this has led down

to trickle down to like even domino's pizzas having to care about this and private sector

companies needing to take this account into account where previously didn't have to have to

have to and uh there's really good examples of stuff in public sector where they are working

for this and like i mean i speak as a european right where i think 45 billion euros are spent

on it each year which is a pretty big carrot right but also in the uk there's a load of really

interesting work where the people who spend money there like in the orders of hundreds tens of

millions are also saying we spend loads of money and we have our own targets that we need to meet

uh we should be speaking so it's a case of consumers but there's also i think there's a

wider it's it's it's more complicated than that and i kind of feel that i mean the really good

example actually will be america right now so uh america we've had this massive uh infrastructure

announcement right where they're going to spend something like two trillion dollars now even

google themselves google are like one of the leaders in this in terms of greening their

infrastructure right so they said we want to be 24 7 matching power so not on annual basis they

want to have all the time all the infrastructure running all the time on renewable power and they

said we we're doing this and we are setting a target of 2030 because even us a trillion dollar

company by ourselves can't do this we need to work with the government and the u.s government have

basically included the same language of 24 7 power into all their buildings from now on right now

the biggest buyer of renewable electricity of electricity has now said we're going to do what

google is doing so that's going to change the market much more than just consumers in this

and i kind of feel like as people who build systems and maintain systems there's all these

useful systems thinking we could draw upon and like expand our understanding of this and i feel

like as professionals we could totally do this it's like it's like so much you could like dive

into if you're interested but as well and when you're in that next um that next meeting where

it comes to be like you know we're going to spec up the architecture what are we going to do what

are we going to do to to raise your hand and mention those points is actually yeah working

on the front line here it's it's making the change thing i was going to mention there's two things on

this thing i was going to mention first of all we've done some work with the internet society

and we've landed a bunch of funding to basically build an open syllabus a syllabus aimed at

technologists saying these are the questions to ask these are how to think about it we're going

to be doing it over the next year we'll be running a series of fellowships who we basically hire them

to learn in the open with us to build this open syllabus that could be used for pretty much any

kind of documentation but the thing that i wanted to speak to you folks about is that we're considering

doing something similar to have like a kind of green web django fellow where we would basically

pay we're thinking of something like between 10 and 15k for someone to basically write the guides

and write the information for this and we can probably find we can put up like 7k already

because some we've had some funding land so if we can find some other people to put in some of the

other stuff then we can absolutely pay for someone to say these are the things to think about as a

specialist as a responsible technologist so just like we have things like the defaults from like

hanger from i think uh jacob jacob so now do you know uh jacobian on twitter i forget his uh he's

the jacob kaplan mark thank you yes yeah so uh one of the places he worked there is like this

this document called the defaults which is this is what we use for our stack right uh all things

being equal right yeah it'll be so nice to have something like like these are the things to think

about as a django developer because there's stuff out there there's some work by a guy called asim

hussein when i think what he's written something called principles.green which is basically how to

think about architecture as a developer in this field and he is now the head of green cloud

advocacy at microsoft who's doing some really good work there's totally stuff out there but it'd be

really nice to have something specifically aimed at the communities because in the in the in the

land of wordpress there's a bunch of real trailblazers there and i kind of feel like with

django's background and all the people i've mentioned before there's absolutely space to

have like if you're saying this is how we do kind of green django or the phrase i've used is gold

Django because there was like green open lean and distributed that was like the stuff I used in the

talk to make it sound cool so this was uh based on the idea of poor because if you work with

accessibility there's uh perceivable operable uh understandable or I think it's understandable

I might be wrong and uh I forgot what's the last one a resilient right so you you have the word

poor it makes it easy to speak to developers uh it's a useful kind of memory aid but it's also

a thing that you can say this is what i'm asking for like it would be cool to have i want a golden

django website where you can so people who commission right so what's gold green power

yeah uh so green inputs which is basically basically running computers and making computers

because computers are sand plus ip remember right like sand with lots and lots of energy and then

thinking about it turn unit with computers so green open open like open source open culture

open data these are really useful l lean so if you're going to emit carbon and we kind of have

to because everything uses energy at least make it count and don't waste it so much at least be

able to respond and then distributed because well once you because you don't want to be reliant on

just one uh one provider and uh there's also once you understand a little bit more about electricity

and how like the underlying things that create a carbon footprint as a technologist you realize

when things are distributed you can basically scale up demand in where's places where there's

an abundance of green power and not reliant on elsewhere and so that's it green open lean

distributed yeah and this is the that's what i spoke about in green and django the talk for

django days and oh yeah i should probably talk about it now i am the keynote for django con

europe yeah so we'll be speaking about this and if there's interest i could probably expand upon

that a bit more because yeah there is um that's the thing that we'll be talking about in a bit

more detail yes i like the the the distributed on the end of there because that's like one of

the hard points right i've got to make my i've got to make my my project able to be the thing

that's so cool though deployed wherever that's really really cool around distributed right

so there's a company called lanceum and uh what they do is they basically put a load of data with

we we used to think of data centers as big box things a little bit like a kind of big box out

of town walmart right it's miles where no one can see it right and it's the energy is really really

cheap and uh they spend loads of money and loads of time trying to get rid of the heat in the

building uh to the out to to where it's outside and that has some unfortunate side effects but

there's also this is like the heat is a really really useful thing to actually have you can do

stuff with that so like in uh there's a whole movement to have much much smaller data centers

in urban places where the heat that is generated ends up being used to kind of you know help with

say uh greenhouses for example or something like that when you take a systemic view but there are

also places where because uh we're in a kind of world where renewable energy is increasingly

common and you have these kind of natural cycles you have cases where if you can get the data

centers near where say there are solar wind farms or i mean say solar farms or wind farms when there

are places where they're unable to sell electricity into the grid where it'd otherwise be wasted you

can make use of that which means that you can have much much cheaper compute than what you might

otherwise pay so lanceum use this they take advantage of this and they end up providing

essentially ec style compute for jobs at something like an something like an 80 discount compared to

amazon's own prices because their entire economies are different to the the economics of running a

massive big box data center somewhere else so there's all these things that we're not really

aware of yet that we could take advantage of if we think about the distributed part and that's why i

think it's kind of cool because yeah all this work uh by people in ml have basically made it easier

to be aware of this stuff so whenever there's anything that we could do which isn't super time

sensitive you can shove it to somewhere where it's gonna be way way way cheaper and way way greener

and it'll still be part of your process but you need to design it from the very beginning or at

least have that and these are the kind of principles that i think we should be aware of

as technologists because it's just freaking cool if nothing else right yeah yeah so that fellowship

will um if there's something out on that we'll put that in the notes and certainly the django

news newsletter we'll we'll put it in there because i think there'll be a lot of interest

in that for sure yeah it'd be really lovely to have that because i feel that we it if we value

things it makes sense to well literally value things allocate funding and time to this and the

only reason that it was possible was that the internet society foundation who are funding us

they basically said we want to do something about the environmental footprint of the internet and

we said well the problem is people don't quite know what to talk about it in terms of in terms

of beyond just efficiency so they said okay well we will fund you and pay two hundred thousand

dollars to fund a series of fellowships to build this kind of stuff so there is funding out there

to do this stuff and there's absolutely funding in my in my view to kind of pay for like say

people to like uh you know pay for content designers or the people like that for the

documentation for django all this stuff here these are things we value and i feel like it's worth

doing and i kind of when i look at how how useful the django framework has been in the community and

how valuable the community has been to to us as well i'm kind of amazed by just like it wouldn't

take that much to kind of double the funding going to the Django Software Foundation, right?

And there's so much you could do with that, right? And if you think about like a day rate of a

developer, right? Like it feels like this isn't that hard to do really, right? It's just a case

of explicitly choosing what we decide to fund and support, I suppose. Well, we've, yeah, we had

actually through this podcast, we had, so we had a discussion with Eva from the Python Software

Foundation. And I think one of the limiting factors for Django has been, for historical

reasons, the idea that we can't pay people and do fellowships. But it seems like that's actually

not the case. And we actually had Karen Tracy, who was on the board at Cactus and written a great

book, reached out to Carlton and to me to give us the backstory because the current board wasn't

around then. So anyways, I think these things are changing to open things up. The issue for Django

is always a kind of a management thing, right?

We got to find a working group

or someone to lead these things to service the grants.

But there are all these grants out there.

And if we're able to do that,

we could have people, you know, beyond.

So Carlton does a lot of work with the Summer of Code,

Season of Docs.

There's certainly level steps up in terms of money

and features and things that could be added.

So we're not limited by that anymore,

which I guess is what I'm saying.

We're confirming that, but it seems to be the case.

i think the thing to remember with season of docs and summer of codes is it's very much students

and so you know that that's there's a limit to what can be achieved within the scope of those

programs um but you know it's always been the case with django well we could go out and raise

more money perhaps we you know ask companies that are using come on to contribute but what for you

know the fellowship program runs and then beyond that we didn't have anything to raise the money

for but if there's a super project to raise the money for then you know we could all jump on the

bandwagon and you know shout from the things i'm sure companies yeah i think there's space for

stuff like this because uh i think i remember was it the uh work with i think was it the work on

django channels i remember there's at least been one one thing that's been kick-started

to actually get uh to create some kind of postgres too yeah yeah like yeah postgres there was a rest

framework kickstarter i think it's a case of us as a community learning to think in terms of public

goods and what things are useful and other and how this stuff can be funded because there is now an

appetite for people to talk about this and even funders are looking to work out what language

people use for this and in some cases it may be the case of learning to speak the language of

these people uh of a funder or even how people think about governance of this stuff so i've heard

people talk about things like uh data you know there's critical infrastructure which we're aware

of like buildings and bridges and things like that but in the uk people talk about data infrastructure

as a way of talking about like addresses or energy data or things like this and in some other places

i've heard people talk about uh code as like logical infrastructure as in the stuff that we

rely on yeah and i think it's a case of uh that's i think that came from the low risk project who

use this term which is oh that's kind of nifty and i think we need to be able to talk about these

things that society is increasingly built upon and uh once if we're able to use that language

it becomes possible to fund this kind of stuff where it makes it much easier to think about this

it's just that we probably don't have i mean i guess there is it's good to being open to figuring

out how to frame or how to speak the language of people who are prepared to fund this stuff or

are looking to fund this stuff because right now they're not quite sure what to do in many cases

yeah no but that's exactly the problem i have as a as a sort of interested you know i try and

cut out come be efficient at home and all these kind of things but i don't really know what to do

and like that's a case of specialization people there are people who are really good specialists

at this so let's say if there's someone who specializes in grant fundraising i don't know

like this is something we've been considering at the greenwood foundation speaking to someone

because i've tried writing funding applications and oh my god it's like pulling teeth right like

uh sometimes it works and like it worked uh this time but it's taken so many other times and it's

like oh my god it's taken so much time it's not you know like when you're a backend developer and

you do that css and you're like this is not the most effective use of my time right i kind of feel

like there is scope for us to kind of realize that all these other functions which are absolutely

deaf you know real deep domains and being able to tap into people for that would be would make so

much sense like we're going to try this because it it makes sense now that we for the first time

we can afford to but it would be lovely to see this kind of like maturity i suppose uh expanding

because yeah i i really really am kind of quite emotionally invested in the django community now

and like also technically because a bunch of the infrastructure now uses django at the green

foundation and i that's another podcast right uh but i kind of feel like there is you know there

there is an urgency around this and it would be cool to have like you know a gold something

anyway i've realized we've gone a bit over time so i'm going to wind up because i'm oh yeah it's

just i was just thinking the uh this is why the the conferences and in-person things are so great

it's because you can have you know we could have this conversation over dinner and then

you know things could happen and things are a bit limited but um yes i mean structurally i think

something there's room for you know more groups within django to work on these things but it is

there's a reason why there's professionals who do this stuff but um if we have you know because

it's chicken and egg if we know these are the problems we have on the one hand and then these

are the groups that are looking for ways to give money um it's just a matter of putting that

together. Um, in any case, so we will have, um, links to everything on here. This will come out

in June. You're keynoting DjangoCon Europe, which I think will happen before then. Um, so we'll have

a link to, I think they'll have the videos up. So we'll put, we'll put your talk up when this comes

out. Yeah, no, really, really enjoyed this. Yeah. Well, I love seeing your talk. It's so, you know,

that's the privilege of having the podcast is, you know, people were like, wow, that person's

really interesting and then we get to we get to meet virtually so thank you for taking the time

thank you carlton you want to read us out yeah no no yeah i'm just um blown away i'm just like

you know thinking about all these things that we've been talking about so thank you chris thank

you for so much for coming on thank you for joining us everybody with um on twitter

django chat.com yeah yeah django chat.com chat django on twitter join us next time bye