Transcript: How Django Really Works - Chaim Kirby

Hi, welcome to an episode of Django Chat, a podcast on the Django Web Framework.

I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hello, Carlton.

Hello, Will.

And we're very pleased to have Haim Kirby, president of the Django Software Foundation,

join us for this episode.

Hi, Haim.

Hi, Will.

Hi, Carlton.

Thanks for having me.

Hello, Haim.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, we're happy to finally have you on.

So this episode is being more or less real time, so it'll come out tomorrow from when

we record.

so that's a nice change. But let's start with the Django Software Foundation. So you're the

president as of this year. What's the quick pitch? I thought Django was just code. What's this other

organization? Yeah, so the Django Software Foundation, we own the copyright to the code.

We hold the copyright. We hold the trademarks. We police both of those things. And somewhat

more importantly, I think we manage the community or help to manage the community around Django.

The steering committee is part of the DSF.

The steering committee sort of leads technical innovation.

The fellows with Carlton, I think I can say that for another four days, being one Carlton and Marius.

Two days, two days.

Whatever the end of the month is, I don't even know what today is, the 28th, there you go.

Carlton and Marius are wonderful fellows, and we do have a new fellow joining us.

The announcement will be coming out very soon, but I think this podcast will probably come out before the announcement.

But we've had a wonderful time with Carlton, and we hope that process will continue in

an amazing way.

And yeah, but yeah, so the DSF, everything that isn't Django code specifically in the

Django ecosystem and world.

And then let's just, so how does one get on the DSF?

So you and I were on it together for several years.

How did you find out about it, right?

Because you're a programmer, but I think it takes a while before a Django person even

knows about it.

Maybe the DjangoCon, or how did you learn about it?

So I'm a little bit unusual, and I think we'll probably get into this a bit.

I have an engineering background, but also a legal background, and so stuff like that

sort of jumps out to me, or I make a purpose of looking at it.

But more to the point, I found in my life that things that I'm interested in, I tend

to fall into positions of leadership or something like that.

And I think more it's if I'm interested in it, I'm going to go all in.

And so I discovered the DSF fairly soon in my life.

Joining the board, well, I guess there's two different things in joining the DSF, right?

Because we have members, and then we have the board, and then we have committees and

stuff, which we could talk about.

And membership is a place where I'm really interested in growing the DSF, what it means

to be a member, our membership right now, what the bylaws say membership is, and what

our membership is right now isn't even fully aligned.

But right now, membership is kind of a lifetime achievement.

You've done good things in the community award, for lack of a better term.

There's probably about 250, 300 individual members of the DSF.

And then the board, separate from the steering committee, is charged with all these sort

of legal and bureaucratic aspects of running the DSF, like we said.

And anybody can run for the board.

We have elections once a year.

Don't have to be a member.

Anybody in the world can run for the board.

Only members can vote.

Generally speaking, I think people who are elected to the board are people who are known to the community.

But if you can write a good personal statement, you'll get elected.

We made a change last year and we'll participate in this change.

It used to be we elected to one-year terms.

And over COVID, that seemed to us who were on the board to be a bad idea because, you know, there was a huge potential for burnout of everybody doing everything.

And the idea of the entire board deciding one day to be like, I'm done, that doesn't

bode well for the life cycle of an organization.

So we switched to a staggered two-year terms.

So this year was our first election that kicked into that.

So this year, half the board that was elected, well, there's seven of us.

So four people who were elected were elected to two-year terms and three people were elected

to the final one-year term for us to set up the staggering.

A positive take on that is that we noticed that, I think, I guess the second year of

COVID or during COVID, we had basically the same board. And it was so much, I felt it was so much

more productive because there is a ramp up period. And so most people when they're new,

which makes sense, aren't proactive because they're just learning the ropes the first,

certainly six months. And so that second year where we had the same board, I felt like changing

the bylaws and all these other things, it was much more productive. So having two-year term

made a lot of sense. And again, Django relied on your legal background because you're certainly

the only Django developer I know with a legal background. Yeah, I think there's probably a few,

I mean, right. It's when you say Django developer, this is something that always interests me.

So, right. There's seven board members, three members of the steering committee,

a few committees here and there, like we have our fellowship committee that there are three people.

We have a few others, the code of conduct committee, and there's overlap among them,

right then 300 some odd dsf individual members then we saw jetbrains django survey and i think

correct me but there was what i think about 50 000 respondents 20 000 i forget the number but

a couple tens of thousands i think it was like seven am i getting fully confused or am i thinking

of the python i think you're thinking the python one but there was there was um i think like 7 000

last okay something like that so so 7 000 people responded so what is a django developer and this

is a big deal and i know i sort of spoke about this in in my uh talk in um porto that you you're

going to link and thank you for that there's probably one or two million django developers

at any time in the world right and so so who are we doing this for and who's participating in it's

an it's an interesting question um anyway yeah sorry a bit of a tangent but no it's not it's i

think it's really important because the thing you talked about there was that the um the individual

membership award let's call it is for lifetime achievement you've contributed to Django there's

an awful lot of those people that aren't currently involved in Django correct which is fine because

there's no obligation to keep being involved in Django forever right you move on you go and do

other things and even if they are just away for a bit or they come back but what we don't have I

think and what I think somehow we I don't know whether it needs to be an official thing but I

think it's really missing is something that's more is for who's active now so okay there's a

discord in the forum and you can hang out in those places and you can come to the conferences but

there's an awful lot of people beyond that who are active in django now but i think we for me

i'm like how do i reach those people because say for example now we want to move the translations

um uh machinery from trans effects to weblet and they've offered us hosting and all the rest but

there's a um there's a workload to be done in moving that now i can email the members of the

jango software foundation say hey anyone going to help me but most of the people on that list

aren't perhaps active whereas if there's another forum where i'm like hey you're all active and

we've got this this issue i'm going to get a better response it's difficult to know just from

a pure maintenance perspective if i want volunteers the the hall of fame isn't necessarily a place to

ask for those volunteers what's your thought on that yeah definitely i think and to call it a hall

of fame that that's a difficult and i've had that feeling too but yeah there's always this this

danger of when we have an initiative when we decide we want to do something either on the

work side on a committee side whatever um we reach out to the membership why well we have a mailing

list um but it's it's hard to say okay we're going to continually ask the people who have

given have been recognized for having given in the past and ask them to do more right that's a

really excellent recipe for burnout and we aren't giving not we aren't giving other people the

opportunity to to join that that membership by not giving them anything but we don't have the

channels to tell people hey there is things that can be done that aren't code but that you can can

give back um it's kind of like political donations right you give one donation of five dollars and

suddenly like everybody who wants money emails you it's like oh because this is someone who'll give

It's like, but suddenly that's half a million dollars if I gave to everybody.

What's going on?

I have another, I think, good example maybe to illustrate it.

So I'm an admin on a Slack called PySlackers and 50,000 people on that Slack, which we

can talk about the Slack pricing and stuff at another point, but we don't pay anything.

But 50,000 people on that Slack.

If I go look at the metrics, about 200 are commenting, right?

There's like 200 core people who like put whatever.

But every week, you get this message about new users and people who moved inactive.

However, Slack means inactive.

Probably haven't touched it in a week, right?

And usually, we have about 50 or 100 new users or 50 or 100 inactive, which means that community,

people who are seeing these messages, yeah, it's 200 people driving it.

But there's 49,000 people who are seeing it.

We, in the DSF, don't have that 49,000 in a channel.

Yeah.

I mean, there is the Discord that's been set up.

There is the Discord.

And it's quite active.

And full disclosure, I'm not actually on the Discord, which maybe I should be.

Okay, so I'm on it, but I don't ever go on it because every time I go into Discord, my mind sort of explodes slightly.

I find it really difficult to be on Discord.

and i think that's right so much of the django community rightly is about the software and of

course it's about the software but there's so much that can be done without writing code for

core django right translations that's something writing your own libraries or just you use django

right if you use it it matters to you in some way shape or form maybe just for you want to be able

to get updates yeah yeah just i mean but quite often as well as in my time following i've had

people come and they approach and say well what can i do and it's like it's really hard to guide

them in the right direction to was the contributing guide which is great but it's like like reading

the bible it's massive it's big it's intimidating and we don't have that easy on ramp yeah for

people who want to volunteer. Well, it's funny, you know, when somebody

comes into this, not even the Django community, but the software community, right? And they want

to learn, you know, about a career. They want to learn they went to school or not. What do we tell

them? We tell them, you know, scratch your own itch. That's the only way you're going to do

something that's interesting. And then that's lost maybe to some degree, right? Like, oh,

write a package. You don't have to contribute to Django. Like that was my entry into Django. I mean,

I was using it for work, but I wrote a few packages and, you know, maybe one other person

has used them, but they're on PyPI and that's cool. And that's maybe lacking. And I know we

were in San Diego, Carlton and I, I think, I forget if we met there, but we sort of became

close in San Diego 2019. And we were talking about contributions and stuff and Carlton was like,

oh, there's this effort to move the Postgres specific ORM bits to be database agnostic as

much as possible. You know, maybe you could take some effort there. And I looked at it.

But my time is finite. And certainly we could talk about that. And like, there wasn't an itch

I had there, right? And that was actually, I think, around the time where I was like,

I'll run for the board instead, to some degree, because that sort of interested me more in

scratching an itch in the communal aspect of things. Well, in the conferences, something else

that COVID highlighted is the conferences have really been the Django cons, the place to bring

people into the community i mean that's how i got pulled in and so not having the conferences we

really felt the the lack of other ways to bring people in even there right our conferences are

small which is good right there's a group of people and you want it to be right you can meet

anybody in the room and that's wonderful it's not like this you know 10 000 person conference

even pycon is not 10 000 people but it's too many and there's too many feels like channels right

exactly um but even there how many people are new to those probably not too many right maybe

they've been doing a little i don't know maybe maybe no no i'm gonna argue okay i think i was

in porto and i was like it was the first conference back after the the two two years of online and it

was like is this gonna work is it and yeah first of all it's like oh there's all these all the old

faces like brilliant it's so good to see and there were some people who didn't come it's like oh so

but they were all the old faces and that was wonderful but also there were masses of new people

and masses of youngsters as well which is really important i didn't mean to say new people to the

conferences yes there are a lot of new people to the conferences i don't think there's people come

to the conferences usually i think maybe i'm misreading right because i've not run the

conferences i've been to them um people come when they've had an entree into the django community

the conferences are not their entry point to the JNU community and especially, you know, and I say

throwing ideas out and putting more work on other people's plates. I don't know. But I remember in

San Diego, there was a student, I think a local student. I said, Oh, like, was there advertising

at your school? Was it something like that? And they said, you know, no, I just happened to

see a link. It's like, why don't we do local community advertising? Yeah, sure. There's

numbers and whatever, but you know, have a local cut or a student rate cut for the local university

or whatever, get their computer science students to show up at a conference.

I don't know.

Why don't we do that?

I thought you were going to say, why don't we have local chapters?

And that's how I – there used to be a Django Boston pre-COVID,

and that's unfortunately gone away.

So there's – which I think my main point I was going to say is that, you know,

Django is all volunteers, and it is this big thing.

But when I ask people who aren't in the Django world, even Django developers,

Like, where do you think Django comes from?

Like, they just assume, you know, it's tech.

There's money flowing, you know, out of fountains, right?

They just assume that Google or somebody has a, you know, financial incentive to make it all happen.

But, you know, we're not even Python, right?

Python's, you know, a big step up.

And then there's other things.

So Django is huge but tiny.

And that's a hard thing even for software developers.

It's like, well, it's just there, so it'll always be there.

I'm glad you said that, Will, because it goes into something I was thinking.

You mentioned, oh, local chapters.

So when we were on the board, when Will and I were on the board, we got a request.

We get grant requests.

We could talk about funding and stuff separately, but I think it's an important discussion.

We got a request from somebody who wanted to start basically a Django club at their university.

And I don't even know that they were asking for money per se.

I mean, yeah, we might have thrown them a couple hundred bucks if it made sense.

But they're asking for, you know, resources or mentorship or something like that.

And being the volunteer, and I know, Carlton, we can talk a lot about mentorship.

I know that's something top of mind for you, and I think you as well.

I mean, cards on the table.

We run on about a quarter million dollars a year.

That's what we raise, and there's a bit of a budget shortfall.

We could talk about that because of inflation and various other things.

It's interesting to think, and I know these are conversations that we've had.

What could we do with more?

What would we do with more?

what work would it take to raise more? Because I think there's a whole lot that could be done,

but who knows? Yeah. Okay. So here's my, when you say that,

my immediate thought is, and this comes back to the point I made about,

we need to be able to reach who's active now. Because, okay, let's say we raised half a million

extra, like three times the budget. Okay. What would we do with that? What's the point? Who's

going to do it excellent who's going to who's going to do that work with the money that we

raise it's yeah like we're kind of so i guess the question is what do you think the scope of the dsf

should be because clearly it needs to defend django and the trademark and clearly the fellowship

program or i absolutely believe that the fellowship program is the reason why django's been able to

succeed over the longer term um and then there's the django cons which i think are absolutely vital

but beyond those things what do you think the scope of the dsf is reasonable to take on absolutely

excellent question um so first you're you're scooping uh i think something that i'm going

to bring you with the next board meeting so i apologize to the rest of the board members um

i will say these are my own thoughts this is not you know the dsf or the board's thoughts um

but yes first and foremost what do we need to do um so the fellows are the driving force behind

our roadmap hitting its target dates. Yes, the steering committee sort of is the final arbiters,

but the fellows are doing the day-to-day work 100% and everything to them. Carlton, Marius,

I could not do what you guys do. It's amazing. So thank you for all the work you've done.

Separately, yeah, doing grants are sort of big funds grant-wise, DjangoCon Europe,

DjangoCon US, DjangoCon Africa. There's going to be a DjangoCon Africa this year. Very exciting.

And then primarily Django Girls events.

There are a few others here and there, but those are sort of the big grant monies.

And then small things.

We pay for hosting, things of that nature, a few places.

So what could we do with more?

Well, the DSF, by its founding articles, has four mandates to protect Django.

So trademark, copyright, things like that.

And I'm going to get some of these wrong.

to develop Django, so the fellows, people contributing, the steering committee, what

have you, to further the cutting edge of modern web development, which I think gets kind of

close into just developing Django, but things like async falls into that broadly, right?

And then finally, and I think this is where we drop the ball continuously, and I would

suggest for whatever the 17 years the DSF has been a thing is promote Django. We do a little

promotion by way of giving money to Django girls, by giving money to the conferences, by letting

people under our rules of trademark use the trademark appropriately. But that's it, right?

And again, it's because it's volunteer and that's fine. If we had more money, some ideas. And there

are various places that we could place the money. It depends on what scope and what we prioritize.

One would be, I think there's a recognition that there may be some scope for more fellow effort.

So certainly, you know, sort of more people paid to work on and with and around Django

would be very appropriate. An idea has been floated a number of times about an executive

director to handle more of the day-to-day. So it's not wholly volunteer, the sort of running

of the Django world. And then what could we do with money around promotion? Could we run

more events? Do we bring cons back under the umbrella of the DSF? There's been conversations

going both directions of that. Like the Python world, the PSF runs PyCon, right? We don't run

DjangoCon. Defna runs DjangoCon US and we sort of manage DjangoCon Europe by finding a committee to

do it every year. Maybe we could do outreach. Maybe we could have community liaisons,

developer relations, right? Maybe we, little things, put out a PR blurb every time there's

a major release and send to like tech news channels, right? We don't do that. Tiny things

that would cost nothing, but time, but we don't have the time. So let's spend a few bucks to do

it perhaps. You're reminding me of, we should ask Ron as a guest, Deb Nicholson, who's the

PSF, the new executive director, Anna, the past DSF president, and I had a really great call with

her, I guess last year, where we, you know, and asking, you know, what, you know, coming new into

this new, like, what can executive director do? And she really, you know, I mean, she got the PSF

job, so, and she's worked in the space for years. So she really could lay out what such a person can

do, right? And it's really just someone full-time organizing the trains, doing all these little

things delegating you know making making hard calls that need to be made you know operationally

not around the code so it's certainly when you're on the inside of the dsf it's it's definitely like

oh it'd be nice if there was you know it's hard to know if it's just like a white unicorn

um or like how much do we need these things but like so it's definitely oh go for it yeah

no go on because i'm bursting i'm bursting at this point is that because technically speaking

the framework is in a stronger position as it's been for years like we the last few releases just

so many things ticks have been ticked you know boxes have been ticked and improvements have

been made and it's actually it's really exciting and it's like yeah we should be promoting Django

it's like actually it's it's not old and crusty and withering it's like you know new bloom let's

let's promote it let's get people excited about using it yeah and I think that that's there's

maybe a differentiator there talking about DSF Django, PSF Python, right? People look at the

DSF and they see Django and maybe they see, yeah, it's exciting, but it's difficult to get into.

It's opaque because it's robust. It is large, right? And it's working. And so how do I get

into it? Python, certainly there's a lot going on in the Python world, but it's all about the

community around Python and PyCon and the PSF, right? And I made this comment for anybody who

listens to my 2022 Europe talk, that let's go really dour, the death of Django, right? It's

not going to be because the code base dies and withers. Like, honestly, we could do no more work

and it would be long lived. It does what it needs to do. We want to continually improve it and make

it modern and, you know, do everything that anybody would want to do. But it's good. It's

excellent. If Django dies, it's going to be the community that dies because people are like,

oh, yeah, the code's done. What else is there to do? And there's so much to do.

If you care about the community, if you care about using Django, right? If you don't,

it's a bit of a tautology. There's nothing to do if there's nothing to do. Well,

there is if you want to do stuff. Oh, and that's why we're having this

chat so people can hear. Precisely. I mean, you know, but part of it, you know,

you wrote a political analogy. I mean, it's a democracy in all its strengths and weaknesses.

and one of the weaknesses is sometimes it's hard to get something done i mean even you know in a

sense well not me anymore i don't matter but if there were ever people to get something done i

mean carl you know carlton's a fellow for another two days you're the president so i'll get it done

two days let's um this is real world for people hey let's have a let's have a newsletter on the

jenga project site because we don't have it that's that's a big reason why i have the jenga news

newsletter because we don't have it but like you know how are we going to reach someone if we don't

do that like how does that actually play out kind of behind the scenes absolutely hi maybe you can

yeah you're both so you can elucidate you know illuminate that for people so um i can't speak

deeply historically but i can say for the last three years in the last three years the bulk of

that were a very unusual time um but the board and the couple other people who work on committees

steering committee are like again our fellowship committee um it's how much time they're willing

to put in, right? There are minimal expectations. Yes, our bylaws say we can remove somebody who's

not performing their job, but I don't think that's ever happened, right? And so the expectations are

really how much we expect of ourselves, right? Is it we're on the board and okay, great. You go to

an hour long meeting or, you know, I guess Will was the treasurer. The treasurer has a little bit

more and the president has a little bit more. But, or are you actually going to put that time

in? Because right now, hopefully we can get to a place where it's not just about people who come

up with a couple hours here and there can do something if they so desire. Hopefully it can

be a little bit more robust, for lack of a better term. But let's speak in specifics.

The board, last board meeting, approved some changes to the bylaws. The bylaws had some

interesting language around committees that were restrictive and we can change the bylaws. So now

we eliminated that section and they'll get published soon on the website. And we look

back to the higher article of the bylaws that says the board can do anything basically for the good

of the dsf so we are going to start expanding our committees and expanding the support um for

django both for opportunities for people to give back hopefully also to allow the board hopefully

to become more of a um proactive and directional force in the dsf and less less of a bureaucratic

reactive, oh, we have to figure out if we're going to give this grant kind of thing.

So one immediate place where people can maybe come back and we're going to ask for volunteers

will be on some of these committees. The ones that are obvious that we're going to put off,

we're going to build up a funding committee who will review grant requests. The board will

finally approve them, but we're going to have a funding committee. The one that goes immediately

with that, a fundraising committee, because fundraising, I just said, it's important. We

actually did have a budget shortfall. We have savings. We're okay. But right. So fundraising

is important. And fundraising needs to be a concerted effort. So if we bring on an executive

director, right, we would do that. Then we can start thinking about things. A lot of it is going

to be a question of the membership and greater Django community, how much they want to give back

in various areas, right? Do we have a swag committee? Do we have a promotion committee,

We have a Twitter channel, Twitter with all its dumpster fire of everything, but we also have a presence on, I think, Mastodon. We have various presence. Maybe it's just one or two people that once or twice a month put together a press release, a tweet, whatever, start in that promotional direction.

If people were interested, you know, I'm related to the education world.

My mother's an educator.

My wife's a principal.

Why don't we have teaching materials?

And I know that starts to get into a very weird space, and especially for Will.

Will's like, hey, that's how I make money.

But that's not what I mean.

But like, you know, we have the how-to.

I don't care if the money comes from readers or the DSS.

There we go.

That's good.

But again, I go back to this kid who requested stuff for a club at college.

like that could we you know it would have been probably five or ten kids but it's like hey this

is a community that's welcoming that you know the software does what you want it to do it's very open

for you to do what you need to do um but we didn't have anything to give them whether it's swag

whether it's finances whether it's we had nothing right and i'm using them a bit as a touch point

because it seemed like an interesting they came to us and we're like we got nothing it's similar

with people who want to contribute

is it's really hard to point to an easy issue

or an easy on-ramp.

That's not for lack of wanting to

or lack of thought about these things.

It's just that, ah, actually,

I don't really know where to guide you

to immediately begin.

Well, I think something you said earlier, Haim,

I guess with Carlton and the Postgres

is that it didn't scratch your itch,

so you didn't do it.

That's kind of the problem

with the non-code part of Django

is that it doesn't scratch your particular itch.

Like you're helping to help,

but setting up a merch store,

doing a developer survey, all these things,

it's largely invisible and it doesn't,

it's not something that is helping you day-to-day

in your job.

So, you know, you can do some of it,

but to do all this stuff, it's just,

it's not sustainable.

Someone unpaid isn't going to do it.

And that's kind of the problem.

I think fundamentally is that like,

no one can really expect even fellowing, right?

I mean, why do we have fellows? Because it's just unreasonable to expect volunteers to push out these updates. And so, yeah, highlighting with, you know, but if I could push you on, so how does something actually get done?

So if I put in a PR on Django Project for, here's a box for a newsletter on MailChimp or something, what is it?

Yeah.

See, the thing is, is, like, I don't, you know, I or someone else, I actually know how things are, but, like, I don't want to do, put in the work to do that unless I know it's going to be approved, but it's hard to know in advance if it'll be approved and who even approves it.

Right.

So that's an interesting question because.

I mean, yeah, we can talk about how things actually get approved, Carlton and stuff, on sort of developer's list.

Yeah.

Well, that's a really interesting one, right? Because that's an approval for code change to

the website, but it's also asking for approval to a change of how we use the website, right? And

what its goal is, which is a little bit different and is a very interesting question. And I think

part of that is there are two large things that are very conflated on the website that make it

difficult, more for one than the other. One is Django. Yes, djangoprojects.com. It is Django.

It is the code. It's how to use the code. It's how to look at the code. It's how to think about

the code. But then you go to the footer or the side, it's like, oh, and it's the DSF.

And it's fundraising. If you click, you know, 14 links, plus maybe, you know, put in a code that

we'd ever sent you. I mean, I'm being facetious, of course, but it's not obvious, right? And so

when you bring up a newsletter that has a weird, maybe overlap of both, right? We're talking about

Django in the context of making it available on this website, but it's about the bigger DSF

community thing. So who to prove that? The ultimate change on the website, one of the fellows would

merge it, I guess. But I don't know. No, it's okay. No. Okay. I'll tell you what would happen

in that exact case. What would happen in that exact case is we'd go, code looks fine, but there's

nowhere I can merge this without the board's approval. And we try and get the board's approval

and it probably wouldn't happen and we'd be we sort of go around we'd be stuck and it just it'd

be like ah paralysis or if i put it i put on the developer's mailing list and you know a lot of

people would quietly say yes then a couple people would have probably you know logical objections

and then we get stuck in the mud yeah unless someone really really pushed yeah yeah and i i

think unfortunately something like that exactly how it would come about you know i don't know but

But spitballing needs to be part of a larger organizational community, whatever, overhaul.

So, like I said, our membership is sort of an unusual in-betweening place, right?

There's plenty of people who, what do they mean by members?

Oh, I want to get the email or I want to just be aware of what's going on, right?

We don't really have that, but there's probably a space for that.

There's also, we didn't even talk about corporate membership, which is a whole other thing that is hopefully getting an overhaul. The website is, I believe, getting an overhaul. There's a process in place that we're doing that. I don't know the exact timeline. I mean, I have a sense of the exact timeline, but I don't feel comfortable sharing it. Let's put it that way.

But so there is going to be an overhaul, whether that overhauls some of these larger questions is a big dependency. And again, it all comes back to everyone's a volunteer and everybody who volunteers for these various roles, be it on the board, be it on the committee.

The fellows aren't a volunteer, but even they have a ton of work to do.

Too much, to be honest.

The best intentions are wonderful, but a lot falls by the wayside.

A lot is like, yeah, we can keep talking about this, but you can talk about something for an hour.

But if it turns out that it's going to take somebody 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 100 hours to do, that's a much bigger ask.

Yeah.

Like, so I had, just to come back to the idea about the merch store, like, I had somebody suggest to me at DjangoCon US about doing t-shirts.

And they were prepared to do the t-shirts, and they got graphic skills, and all the rest.

Was it this last year?

Yeah, just this last year gone.

And, like, I was like, that's all brilliant.

But they're asking me, as the fellow, to sort of facilitate that.

And I just don't have any bandwidth or capacity or authority to do any of those things.

And I don't really know how to enable you to step forward and make that happen.

And we could have release t-shirts like Django 4.2 LTS new t-shirt.

But there's people who it does scratch their itch to create such a thing.

But how do we enable them to actually do it?

Well, but you didn't mention this to me, Carlton.

Well, so like we're talking about all these things we can't do.

When I ran for the board, two of the things I wanted to do was bring back the Django Developer Survey, which I only knew from talking to Tim Graham had even existed, and to get the merch store up.

So like I set up the merch or people had already done quite a bit of work on it, but it wasn't live and there needed to be a final push.

So the Django merch store that exists, like I did that.

I think one or two other people have access, but like, you know, I set that up.

So if somebody wants to do it, it's like, OK, come like should have been, you know, here's the cross channels.

Like ask me, since I used to ostensibly run it, I still have the login and like we can put the designs up and make it happen.

Like I actually I spent I spent quite a bit of time with what is her name?

Libby, who does the beautiful shirts for the Australian ones, trying to get a little bit nicer things.

So it's totally doable. I think that's that's the problem is that there isn't.

yeah there isn't like a place to ask or it isn't there isn't a committee um like i was gonna ask

with the committee so how does are they formed they're gonna be formed how does someone get on

them like what's the plan so um we we are in the process of getting our ducks in a row on the board

to to put that together um one thing that we decided at least in the short term is that every

committee will have a board member as like a liaison member just for to get things going and

you know, sort of corral for lack of a better term. There will be an invite probably for the

first two or three or an open call for interest, I guess, for the first two, I think both of the

funding ones, hopefully coming soon. I don't know the exact time that's been delegated to another

board member, but hopefully coming soon. A lot of that is going to be level of interest. And it's

hard to say, oh, here's two committees and use that to evaluate level of interest for committees

in general because people might not be interested in those but if we went whole hog and said hey

because we probably could vision five six seven committees in different spaces but if we went

whole hog and they got zero interest that's really hard right um but it's going to be you know we'll

post it freely it'll show up on twitter it'll show up on the news it'll show up on the mailing list

my expectations is it's going to be a lot of mailing list people who are going to be the

ones who feedback um and we also have to make decisions on who can be on different committees

right we haven't set any hard and fast rules but like people who decide funding grants we probably

want those to be individual members right they have skin in the game for lack of a better term

fundraising that could probably be open to anyone you know who has an interest in or use Django I

don't see why not and also that becomes an entry point potentially to becoming an individual member

right you gave back you were on a committee like you definitely did the work but yeah I will say

sort of going back to who to contact so this is going to be I guess an easter egg for people

actually listen to the chat, so please don't put it in the show notes. Feel free to, and I hope I

don't regret saying this, feel free to email president at jangoproject.com. I know when I was,

you know, not on the board or anything, not often, but once or twice, I emailed Russell,

I emailed Frank with a thought, with an idea, whatever. And it took a while to get back to me

because of course, right?

It was just a random thought.

But so yes, please, if you have an idea,

if you have a thought, if you have a question,

not just a random question, right?

We have the correct channels for that.

But if there's something that doesn't seem right,

yeah, email me that you think it's a board

or it's a community thing that's a question.

Feel free to.

And I do want to say that I think

me saying that is reflective of,

I think, the Django community

and the Python community more so,

which is I feel comfortable saying that

because the people in our community are good and nice and helpful and not, you know, negative.

And also, I say that because before I was president, I felt comfortable doing that,

and that probably says a lot about me, but anybody in this community really should feel

comfortable in saying, yeah, I'm going to reach out with an idea. Your ideas are valid.

They might not be actionable. That's a separate discussion, but they're valid ideas. So yeah,

bring them up, then I'll be that sort of sounding board. So the committee thing sounds great,

because we've actually talked about this with Deb from the PSF, and we on the board have talked

about this a lot, is that it's too much to expect board members to both delegate, manage, and

organize and do the work. But if they can, you know, it's already a huge lift to just organize.

But I think if you have these committees and, you know, the remit, the point is like, you're going

to make recommendations, then things will happen. Because I think it's that things will happen,

right? Like if there's a marketing committee, and they make a recommendation, they do their thing,

they make a recommendation to the board that says, we really think that we should have

an email newsletter, an official Django newsletter. And then that goes through the process,

right? That makes it a lot easier to do the work if you know it's going to be

like something's going to happen. And like someone wants to object, they can object. But like there

is a process. So all that is pretty exciting. I did want to circle back to Carlton, because at

one point you were you know fellows if they had more time like since you're this is your swan song

like you know we could and you and i have talked privately like well you know if money was no object

how many fellows should we have like what or what what's the scope of things that could be done that

aren't being done because people don't see that they just see oh it's a new release and it's

relatively secure okay no i mean so what we hit very well we hit um the we hit the releases every

month we hit we handle the security issues very well we've um got the the issue tracker under

control and i did a post a while back about the difference between so i did a talk in 2018 on

your web framework meet you and we had i can't remember exactly let's say 1250 tickets open

open accepted tickets which is the metric and now we're down to about 900 so the five years later

it's down by about a third which is you know pretty good going i would say because historically

it had been it had been building up um so we do all of that really well but then there's other

packages in the if you go to the django github org there's other packages which i maintain the

channels packages and i don't get as much time on those as i want i'm hoping to have more time now

this morning though because django django is under control and we had um there was a redis

pi security release i'm like right i really need to do an update for channels redis so this morning

i spent working on channels red and it's like do you know what that's amazing because if i could do

that just you know occasionally it doesn't have to be all the time but if there was sort of fellow

capacity to occasionally make sure these other packages were better looked after that would be

amazing that would just it wouldn't have to be a lot there's the whole jazz band orc right which

massively under um under mentai not for for lack of love or what but just one person doing it two

people doing it like if a fellow had from time to time a bit of capacity to just sort of be at large

amongst the jazz band packages that would just do that push too yeah yeah just you know what i'm

going to sit and merge these three i'm going to sit and resolve these three hard tickages on you

know debug toolbar which everybody uses the debug tool was fantastically maintained so but it's

perhaps not the best example but you know everybody relies on this it needs you know somebody to sit

down and do two two hard days on this and actually it would be resolved if there was capacity to a

fellow to do that what a difference to the ecosystem it would make you know like all jangle

all off which is massively well maintained and well sponsored and whatnot but do you know what

that's so crucial to the django ecosystem that if a fellow needed to spend a bit of time on it and

had that capacity what a return on investment to the django ecosystem that would be if that was

available for the sanity of the fellows is doesn't that feel nice to do right it's not oh it's like

just in terms of keeping the fellows that we have there yeah yeah it's it's it's intellectually

rewarding not that in a way that the triage can be like draining the triage is intellectually

rewarding too but if you just if you're doing the triage and the pull request view on django django

all the time it can be like oh do you know what i may not have the capacity ultimately after five

years of it i have to stop now i've had okay that's enough for me i'm moving on to other things

i'm very excited to be i'm not leaving django i'm very excited to be building stuff with django as

it now is because it's a lot different than it was in 2018 it's like oh yes this is this is fun

time now for me um but if you had if you was fellow you know what you know what you've got

an away day over in jazz band x project brilliant i've got a couple you know what a refresh because

one of the hardest things is dealing with people right people turn up they've got an issue and

again and again you have to in goodwill and good spirit reply to them saying no this isn't

you know and people they they get really upset when you say no and it's it's hard to handle that

And, you know, it's always with the right response and all that, you know, you want to rage out and be like, ah, just go away. You can't do any of that. So to go off and just do some coding on a different project. Wonderful. Wonderful. And what a difference it would make to those other projects and what a difference it would make to Django's secret source, which is third party packages.

Yeah. I'm wondering, we should send Randall Munro the idea. And I think it's come up on, the XKCD has come up on your podcast before, with the one, it's like, you know, the huge tower with the one little tiny piece that's like, you know, some random developer in Ohio. But like, there's a recursive version of that, right? Like that might be Django, but then like you say, Carlton, it's like, oh, there's a third party package that actually everybody relies on that we can't do a ton of work.

And there have been questions about bringing various packages under the DSF umbrella, but then it gets into a question of time. And again, it comes back to, it's a question of funding. And I know we've discussed this before and will in board meetings, and I'm certain it's come up on Django chat before, right?

like there's this there's a chicken and egg problem like a do we want to raise more money

do we have reasons to do it and i think potentially yeah there's probably earmarks but

more fellows or even for the fellows to have like you say you know one day a week one day

every two weeks whatever instead of working on django go work on a jazz band project or like

sort of the 20 time if you want to call it that right um but it'll be good that we start a

fundraising committee to work on that but like honestly to do any initiatives that we've talked

about that we've thought about whatever um it's like close to doubling our budget like right off

the bat to feel comfortable at a minimum maybe this is me a couple months off the board so

feeling somewhat or refreshed but i mean it's doable i mean our budget is it's less than it's

less than a big corp a single big corp software engineer and like more to the point like if

somebody goes and i'm so i'm very excited about these committees because that's been a wish list

for a long time. And I will put my name in for at least one of them. But there's an issue on

Django Project repo right now that Carlton and I have filled out saying, okay, if we need more

money, we don't need to reinvent the wheel here. We have all this real estate on Django Project on

the sidebar. And right now, it's just a random thing of some random person. Just do it every

other site. Look at Vue.js. Just say, if you give a certain amount, boom, you get a little more

placement like you know like it's not it's not rocket science it's been solved or for example

we need another fellow let's have a three-year thing python has done this like brought to you by

microsoft right i mean maybe maybe the timing's not great now but like we could totally do that

right i mean that's and that gets back to the democracy democracy thing is that like it's

really hard to rely on small donors when there's these huge piranhas you know these great white

apex creditors out there that want to access our community, that if we structure it correctly,

like, fine. We do the PyCharm promotion every year, right? I don't think people have a problem

with that. That's been a great partnership that's led to them helping with the survey.

There's no reason if we couldn't do that, sponsor the fellowship program or some of these other

things. It's just that it's all this extra work for the board. And so we talk about it and it

doesn't happen, but I'm optimistic that if there are these committees, we can have a newsletter on

the website. We can fix that sidebar. Carlton and I have done the work on it. It just needs to be

approved. Yes, Carlton. Absolutely. There are people in the Django community who have the

ability to communicate with enterprise companies and do the long thread that's necessary to get

the sign-off on the funding. But the thing is, these kind of big companies, they just literally

can't give you the money unless you go through that process. But it needs somebody to say,

right, I'm going to be the front person to speak to company X, which we know uses Django.

And they can't bother unless it's a significant amount of money because it's not worth their effing time, you know?

So, like, they want, like, I know this, they want to be asked, give us a half million dollars or give us mid-six figures to fund the program for three years.

Like, do it once, boom, all this amazing placement, right?

$50,000, $20,000, like, it's not worth their time to respond.

And that's partly why they all give their money to Python instead of Django because they assume we're part of the PSF anyways.

and also because it's easier to write a million dollar check to python and get placement at a

conference and you know then to deal with the small fish so yes good no go on before i let you

speak i'm just gonna say you know that not reinventing the wheel thing the mailing list

on the thing could just literally be rsv rss feed to email on the blog that could be it wouldn't be

i know we're all i think we're all in environment agreement here but like do we know someone who's

run a Django newsletter for a couple of years that could maybe help out with this. I know

Jeff Triplett. I know me. Like it's trivial. Like. Yeah, no, 100%. I mean, the fundraising

thing's an interesting one. And I agree with you. There's a ton of place. I have concern potentially

if the focus becomes completely like huge enterprise people, because if we make big

changes due to a whale and then they're like, oh no, you need to change this or we're going to

pull our money. Like suddenly you're, you're stuck in the water. Um, it's definitely a direction to

I think the other direction, talking about materials,

we don't have a one pager, which is like,

I'm a random developer at a random company that uses Django,

but that has been using Django for years

and everything's built on Django.

Just hand this to your COO, your CTO.

Here's the one pager that, if nothing else, we could legitimately

legitimately say you're getting $200,000 of fellows value a year, right?

Minimum by donating $5,000, right?

Like we want the big, we want the little, we want everything.

You get a thousand, $5,000 easy, but, um, yeah, I don't know.

It's, it's, it is a chicken and egg problem.

We, the money's, we're getting the chicken though, because we're, we're in a deficit

it. And Carlton has just spoken about all these things. Like, so maybe it's partly, we need to

articulate not just what's being like more clearly what's not being done if for want of some money,

but also if we just stuck the sidebar on there, we could get some more corporate money.

Yeah. I think it's come up before. So I hesitate to ask this and feel free.

No, I know. This is the thing. We get burned out on talking about it because it's like all

we talk about. But this specific one, and feel free to cut this. Well, what about like

sponsored releases, right? Like we put a, you know, some amount for port releases and a larger

amount for an LTS. This release brought to you by so-and-so and they gave money for it, right?

That's a simple one. We put a 4.2 LTS brought to you by Rusty. Exactly. Why not? I think as long

as it was clear that we needed the money and where it was going, it's just. So that's another

interesting point. And that's come up at board meetings at various times that people, you know,

maybe know somebody or inside a lot at the level of funding that we're talking about that it's like

oh we only need one or two of these and we're golden they're very interested in understanding

specifically to some degree how the money's being used and talking about fellows right

they're interested in it can pay for another fellow not that it's going to continue paying

for a fellow so so that's it right so that's an interesting thing on how we articulate that and

how we target it or not. And frankly, how we and do we publicize our financials in what way and to

whom? Well, and that's, I guess I'm, I don't want to say the word guilty. Like that was one thing I

wanted to do was do a public post on the finances. I did do some work behind the scenes to tidy

things up and maybe Peter will do this. Yeah, people are unaware. I mean, I remember at Django

Con talking with Jacob and Simon about the finances of the DSF and they had no idea,

But how could they like they don't sit on board meetings like, you know, so now again, but well, Jacob does.

Yes. Well, that was part of he mentioned that he was thinking about running and I was like, well, you know, we could use you.

Yeah. So, yes. Anyway, so it's all those things.

But I know and it is true that there is a risk that if the funding, you know, right now it's a third to a quarter comes from the pie just well, maybe not.

But a fifth comes from the just the pie charm campaign.

So if you have all your money from a couple of fish, then like that can be a weakness.

Like that was Python's problem.

All their money came from the conferences.

And so with COVID, they didn't have conferences.

And so that was a problem.

But, you know, having more money gives you more options to do things.

And it's, you know, they hired like Python.

They hired someone who like there are people we probably would need to hire a consultant who does this all day long and knows how to tee it up and deal with these companies because they know what they want.

But they just can't be bothered unless it's put to them on a platter.

But if it's on a platter, like they're looking for, I think, wins.

And Django is a pretty feel-good, you know, story.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I don't want anybody who's listening to this to feel like the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

It's not.

We have money in the bank.

We have backstop.

We could run for a while at current levels in a while, you know, years.

But it limits what we can do, what we're able to do.

know fellows we you know are in the process of hiring a new one can we pay even approaching

competitive rates in certain areas right right there's all sorts of questions on where that goes

um but yeah well carlton in a way this is your i mean not that you're leaving the podcast but

this is your last podcast as a fellow yeah by the time we record next week i won't be a fellow

before you're irrelevant do you have any thoughts not beyond what we've said i think you know that

i i remember speaking to frank when he was the president that must be in 2018 something at

django con and um we were having this conversation then about you know why don't we raise more money

i think you must have been you must have started it well um but frank was like well you know we

could raise more money but what for i think at the time there was a kind of feeling well django's sort

of you know getting old in the tooth and whatnot but in the the time since then it's really kind

of um refreshed as you know just the 4.2 release what we got going on cycle pg3 the the async

changes over the thing the forms changes have come through the last few you know it's an exciting

time it's not like that it's like no no actually we should be out there competing with the fancy

javascript frameworks and going no do you know what django is cool and it's boring boring in the

good sense right of being it's reliable and it's got things like lts releases and you know that a

couple of years later your code will still work those kind of things but Django is cool and we

should be promoting it and we should be out there saying no do you know what we want to 3x the

budget in order to be able to do these things and 3xing the budget while it sounds hard isn't really

because the budget's so small it's easy to get exponential growth from a small base so let's do

these things like I honestly I'm really excited about Django I really it's such a vibrant place

It's like I haven't felt like this since the DRF Kickstarter all those years ago, if you remember that, right?

We really are in a ripe and fertile time.

Let's maximize it.

Well, and I think having committees and stuff is a good way to keep people involved who have knowledge but maybe can't do the full board or fellowing.

Like, I'm definitely going to volunteer for something.

We can't endlessly rely.

I mean, you know, behind the scenes, Haim, we talked last year, like a bunch of board people stepped down because COVID and other things.

And thank God that you're still there because, you know, there's only a couple of you with that institutional knowledge to do it.

And, you know, but just because somebody needs to take a breather on one of these things doesn't mean they're stepping away from the community, but they need to be asked and needs to be someone needs to kind of structure it.

And it can't we can't just rely on the board to do all that as volunteers.

But I think if the board, with the help of committees, could come up with like actionable to do lists, like, you know, do you know what this needs doing and that needs doing and that needs doing?

doing it would be quite easy to reach out to the wider community of those all those people who are

active now with using django and say hey look there are these projects that need people power

come and come and help like maybe not pre-approved but like mostly approved yeah but it's the it's

the lack of that clear direction which gives us nothing to call put a call out for to you know so

there's you know yeah it's like chicken and egg again i mean we've used that phrase 58 times

already but if we had those those calls to action we'd be able to put out the call for volunteers

i'm definitely an optimist possibly in the face of you know uh research that suggests otherwise

right i forget the research but basically you know the idea is in any community like you know

two percent or like do everything another ten percent sort of participate in the rest are just

sort of vaguely aware. I'm an optimist that if we do give more opportunity to the greater

community, when I say the greater community here, I'm saying explicitly people in this world that

use Django. Whether that's 100,000 people, 2 million people, I can make arguments in both

directions, right? People in this world that use Django. What can you do in an hour of your time?

Say, yeah, this has helped me in my career. This has been fun. This is whatever. Yeah,

it'd be lovely if you come on and give five bucks. That's easy to do. You could do that,

but you know what if you don't want to give the money what can you do in an hour that gives

something back or that gives you you know a little more exposure um to the community to to help us

out us help you out whatever um maybe i'm wildly starry-eyed but i wouldn't be doing this if i

weren't right right but yeah you're right all communities all volunteer communities have this

power law like where the top contributor they do do masses and then it drops off almost to the

bottom and it's a long tail up but you can move that head outward right so that and just by moving

that head outward you sort of you know massively change the sum of work that's done over this over

the whole graph yes it's always going to be a power law but what we don't what we haven't

historically done i think is try to be open to moving the curve away from the axis and we could

do that and the thing is you you get something from it it's not this just this altruistic thing

I mean, we all met each other through Django, like that's enriched my life, right? You meet people like it doesn't need to be just this thankless thing because it's not because it's an opportunity for you to meet people, to learn how things work, like to have to sit in on conversations with Microsoft and Google or, you know, whatever level of things you're doing.

I mean, you know, it is a community that is, you know, obviously we think is worth being a part of.

And so finding that way to do that first thing, you know, it's nice to work around a common goal, you know, however it is.

So, you know, I'm very happy to hear that the board is putting in place plans to, like, tap into that a bit more.

And, you know, I know we're basically, yeah, go ahead.

I was going to say, just to piggyback off that, Will, I know I said to you, Carlton, I'm not sure if Will shared it.

I said to Will, you know, life is busy.

You're both friends.

I love talking to you guys, but I have no time.

Can I be on the podcast?

Just because I want to hang out with you guys more than anything.

No, you did say that.

Yeah, it's more efficient.

Right.

And I think that's the point, right?

I've made friends, deep friends, long lasting friendships.

You know, I think I hope when we travel around Carlton with the family, I know we've talked

about this.

We hope to visit you guys.

But yeah.

Yes.

I know you're both families of six, which is unbelievably impressive.

Yeah, we could have another podcast about having four kids.

Oh, yeah, we're starting to already see what we can get.

This week, Haim and I have got Will with us.

He's only got three kids.

Right, exactly.

Come on, Will.

I know.

We've got to bring those numbers up.

Nobody knows what it's like.

I mean, even I can just share, because my family doesn't listen to this podcast,

but my brother has one child, and my mom was visiting and helping,

and she said, gosh, it's so hard raising one child in the city, Will.

And I was just, my brother's younger.

His kids are younger.

His, his, his kid is younger.

It's just like, just like, I'm like, God, three is so hard.

And you're like, yep.

And four.

So I'm going to walk in the shoes.

All right.

Well, it, we're, we're basically at an hour.

Haim, is there anything that you wanted to, I didn't get a chance to ask you why you went

to law school?

Cause I, oh my goodness.

I mean, we, we, we could jump back on, we could do another podcast or just a chat anytime.

Yeah.

So, um, um, I have some lawyers in the family.

Um, I, so to be clear with everyone, I did my undergrad and I did a master's sort of

four and a half year joint program, um, in computer science, started my career, uh, in

software and then law had always been something interesting to me.

Um, I sort of love learning and continuous learning and yeah.

And I was like, Hey, I'm going to go to law school.

Um, Boston Suffolk university in Boston has a official law school night program.

So that's unusual.

Most, when most people, when they go to law school at night, it's like, Oh yeah.

If you put classes together over a period of time, you can eventually get a law degree.

At Suffolk, it's a four-year program as opposed to a normal three-year day program.

It's a four-year night program.

So I did that while I was working.

Deep focus in intellectual property, as one would expect, which was lovely and wonderful.

And I'm very happy I went to law school and took the bar and all that fun stuff.

I happened to finish in May of 2008.

You take the bar in August of 2008.

between the time I finished and the time I took the bar, there was one Friday in Boston and sort

of the greater community at large in the U.S. that some, I think, 900 attorneys were laid off

across various firms because it was 2008. And I said, OK, that was a fun idea. I'm not interested

in just like putting up a shingle and doing, you know, personal injury law. It was patent law is

where it's at. So patent law is interesting. I could get into a whole argument. So I'm interested.

I have friends who are patent lawyers. If I was going to be a lawyer, that's the only area that

is worth a darn. Right. So patent, you could go two directions. You go patent prosecution,

which is writing patents, USPTO, things like that. You do litigation, trial.

Litigation interests me a little more. And honestly, for my background, is the only one

that's available to me. For patent prosecution, you need to have a background in a hard science

and a BA in computer science does not satisfy. A BS does, but most universities in the US,

I knew you needed a BS.

We're not a BS in computer science.

Really?

And actually, it's why I did my master's.

What about an MS?

No, well, maybe.

So it's why I did my master's.

So I went to Brandeis, and I was three years into my program, and they added a BS, and

you had to take like two semesters of physics to get the BS.

And I didn't know this history of the law school stuff at the time.

And I said, well, I could take two semesters of physics, or at Brandeis, a master's, if

you did your undergrad at Brandeis is only a year, two years if you didn't do it, or I have

enough credits. I could graduate a semester early and just do the year, which is only a semester

beyond what I would have done normally. So I did the master's instead. So the legal community lost

a great... I don't know. I mean, thank you. That's very kind of you. But it brings an interesting

point of view, I think, into business, right? I did business classes, antitrust, everything,

thing. Right. And I think I come to problems with a different eye. It's probably helped me

in sort of my career progression and growth to sort of leadership and beyond the, you know,

whether it's an IC role and there's a whole nother conversation. We started a second podcast,

but right. Like you have places where there's five or six or Google, right. There's 11,

I think, engineering steps on their engineering ladder, but their ultimate one, only two people

have ever been like a google distinguished fellow or whatever they bought youtube and their cto

became that role um the first half of that are very much you do software right and their software

skills and you're getting better and basically you're expected to get better over a period of

time until you reach that senior level whatever the steps after that principal staff whatever

people call it bring in very different skill sets that people may or may not want to exercise or do

even if it's considered an ic role um and you can have a wonderful career as a senior you don't want

to do that extra stuff, don't, because a lot of times it can be annoying getting into the business

role. I like it, but I think law school brought a lot of those skills that we don't learn as just

sort of, you know, engineer trainees for anybody who did traditional university.

Well, nobody in this podcast, well, I guess you did, but sort of didn't, but Carlton and I didn't,

so. Anyways, Carlton, do you have anything to add? I know we're...

No, no, it's pretty...

Okay, we'll have to have you on again, Haim. We don't have any plans to stop doing these podcasts,

us yeah we could always do another one you know plenty of topics um and i love talking which is

you know you both know that i've never noticed but i so i tell me if the podcast goes well

because i won't be listening to it because i love you know performing but i can't watch myself

perform oh you would love doing one then you get to edit yourself yeah oh god no oh god well

anyways thank you for thank you for doing this let's instead of doing in private we did in public

but that's what this is meant to be it's just a chat among people using django and hopefully it

illustrate some things to people listening. And we'll look for announcements on the new fellow

on committees. And Carlton's on Mastodon if you want to say thank you for all his service. He's

not going away, but Thursday is his last official day. Yes. That is right. Okay. We

are at DjangoChat.com and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye everyone. Bye-bye.