Transcript: How France Ditched Microsoft - Samuel Paccoud
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Hi, welcome to another episode of Django Chat. I'm Will Vincent with Carlton Gibson. Hey, Carlton.
Hello, Will.
And we're very, very pleased to have Samuel Pacu from La Suite Numerique join us today.
Welcome.
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming on.
Happy to be here.
Yes.
So even in America, the work that you're doing has raised quite a stir of having open source software to replace Microsoft and Zoom and other things.
Perhaps you could tell us just broadly what you do day to day and then we'll go from there.
Yeah, so I work for Dynium.
It's the French inter-ministerial directorate
for digital affairs.
We are attached to the French prime minister
and my day-to-day work is to build a set of applications,
which we call La Suite, for daily work.
So there's instant messaging, emailing, video conferencing,
organizing, sharing files and drives, collaborative editing, spreadsheets.
We even added an AI chatbot recently.
So everything for the daily work.
And we do it for state agents, for public agents, but we do it in open source.
So there's also a community growing around what we do.
Yeah. And then I think before that, you were working in education.
is that right also for the for the government yeah so i've been working for denim for two years
two years and a half and before that i was working in the higher education sector also doing django
with a lot of open edX if you know open edX yeah yeah one of the yeah that's one of the big django
projects um so yeah i worked for six or seven years in in france université numérique so that's
the equivalent of Denim, but for
universities, we
provide digital services
for universities,
cloud services.
And then I think
the history is that during COVID, is that
when there was effort started to
make these services available across
government? Was that kind of when things started
around 2022 or so, I think?
Definitely, it
accelerated things, but I was
working in universities, I was
working before COVID. When the
COVID started, we were the first team to spin up a Jitsi instance.
And we had also collaborative editing.
Very fast, we tried to give tools to our agents,
which were suddenly at home and had nothing to work.
So because we were able to very quickly put up services online,
people started to notice us and send us more money and say,
okay, we need more of this because people are remote
and they need to work.
So I think that's when people realized that open source
was where people had a very fast response to these issues
and they started giving more money to open source projects.
While I was in France University Numerique,
in Dynium, they were also able to propose tools
and with open source.
But these were standalone tools.
We didn't have a full digital workspace with interoperable applications.
And so that was the next step, was to say, okay, now people are...
After COVID, people started to say, okay, we need to switch to Office 365.
Like public agents, they didn't have these online tools.
They were just working on their laptops.
And after the COVID, people started to want to move to Office 365.
That was raising a lot of questions in the French public sector to say,
okay, are we really sovereign if everybody moves online?
We started to realize that these daily tools, they are very important
because all your data and all the work you do is done in these tools.
So they are really, in fact, they are not just detailed.
they're really core to your sovereignty,
your data and stuff.
So would you say that the digital sovereignty
sort of aspect is sort of the driving force?
Yeah, I think we, okay, there's also cost.
There's cost and the digital sovereignty there
because in the public sector,
we wouldn't have enough money to pay all the licenses
for all our public agents.
So they were starting to say, okay, let's give Office 365 to only maybe the top level managers.
Yeah, they were starting to have this kind of decision.
And no, that's not what we want.
And because there was also a big problem with digital sovereignty,
then they started to see a solution with open source.
But really, frankly, when I arrived in Zene, nobody thought that we can do it.
And I myself didn't know what I was going to be able to do.
And that's when we started to have top one in Hacker News with Docs and then Visio later.
And then we start to believe in ourselves saying like, okay, we are able to do it and we can, maybe it's easier than we thought.
Maybe it can be done.
Can I ask about a couple of things there then about the team size and then the funding behind that?
What sort of backing do you have?
The backing is growing, like, you know, in the public service, when you come, if you just sit a little bit, they see what you can do and they can give you more.
So when I took the team, the budget was, it was about like between five, six million, maybe.
Everything was used to pay licenses.
So I had to work nights, weekends to start to start docs and video.
We started it as a student project.
We did it on our spare time.
And then slowly, when we did top one in ICANN News,
people say, okay, maybe we should give them more money.
And then, so today, the suite is roughly,
is around 10 million budget, maybe.
It's about 80 people, 35 developers,
mostly freelancers.
And yeah, that's the figures.
But that's super, though.
Let's have, you know, be able to put a team
of that size together.
That's not a small team.
That's a big group.
Yeah, the potential is huge.
Like, you know, the state alone in France is 2.9 million agents.
And if you consider the whole public service in France, it's 6 million agents.
So the potential for these open source tools is huge only in the public sector.
And that's why it's strategic to, it can be done in the public sector.
It can't be done in the private sector by just a company starting and say,
I'm going to make a suite with open source and spread it.
This wouldn't work.
So we thought that, okay, the public sector can make this happen.
Okay, cool.
And then just the cost savings has to be very high, right?
Because team licenses, especially for enterprises,
are, I mean, it must be millions of dollars that's saved
separate from the costs invested in your team.
Yeah, I think I can say today that we saved more money,
we saved more public money than we invested.
So yes, but it's not so easy to say,
okay, I mean, you saved 10 million,
so give me 10 more million.
That's already great.
So yes, we can make savings and I think if people make the correct calculations, we would have to go faster, but it's more complex.
Can I just swing back momentarily? Because did we introduce the suite? Because I know what it is, that's why we've invited you on, but did we really introduce for the listeners what the La Suite Numerique is doing now?
okay so yeah what it's a suite of application i don't know if you want to go into each application
there's there's also a core of last suite which is growing which is based on django and and other
applications which are not so we can maybe focus on on the django yeah applications but but they
are there were some existing tools when i joined uh the first one is a tool called chap which is
basically a
government
instance of
metrics.
So that's
400,000
active users,
monthly active
users, as we
speak, on
the metrics
federation
for the
French states.
Is that,
sorry, is
metrics, that's
the same as
messaging, like
instant messaging?
Yeah, that's
instant messaging.
It's a
decentralized
and end-to-end
encrypted
protocol for
instant messaging.
It's quite
successful in
I mean, there are more than 100,000 nodes in the world,
in the open community, in the open federation of metrics.
We have a private federation.
It's quite successful also in, how do you call it,
regalian environments in governments.
Regulated, yeah.
Because of this encrypted and distributed nature of metrics.
Okay.
Can I ask about the, I mean, on that and then the other projects,
the hosting, I assume it also has to be servers based in France.
You're not using AWS in Washington, D.C.?
Yeah, we have a certification in France called SecNEM Cloud,
which includes protection against extraterritorial access.
So it excludes American-led clouds.
So yes, but we have several instances.
We use public cloud with this certification of second cloud.
So it could be the French hyperscalers are like OVH or Scaleway.
If they have this certification, we can use them.
But we also have internal clouds, internal to the states
where we can have specific instances with more security.
And that's the interesting thing with open source
is that once we have the product, we can deploy it.
Tens of times in air gap, in classified environments, in open environments, and it's also spread outside of the state.
So that's interesting.
Yeah, it compounds.
Yeah.
I mean, that's one thing that I'm interested to follow up on is like, I think once you've built the foundation, there is a real chance to, if it makes it easy enough to install and people can run it themselves.
there's a real growth
opportunity there
the market
the cathedral and the
bazaar type
you know approach
could really apply here
and it does
it's really starting
to
pick up
the
especially on
docs and
visio
the
like
visio 4
was used by gamers
because in visio
you can share
several screens
at the same time
and you can
stream it to
rtmp
so you can stream it
to youtube
and
so gamers
started using Visio.
It was packaged for NixOS as well.
So very easy to deploy.
And it's funny because the people
who packaged it for NixOS,
they made a fork activating
some features for gamers.
But that was the first community
that started using Visio.
And then as we speak,
I don't know how many instances there are,
but it's growing.
We have people who developed a full mobile application last month
and it's coming.
Contributions are starting to come.
Okay, so you've got messaging, you've got meetings,
you've got files, you've got email, you've got spreadsheets.
Yeah, that's the difficulty.
When you want to build a digital workspace,
you have to build a lot of applications and need to be big.
We are not that big either.
So we need the community to take on this and to help.
But we also, we are, like myself,
I've been working on Django for 10 years
and we have about 10 developers
who are really experienced on Django.
And so we reuse what we do a lot.
There's a joke in Let's Feed saying that
everything is a fork of dogs.
And in the case of Drive, Drive is literally a fork of docs with just a small change in the front end.
We replace the editor by a file browser, you know, and that's it.
That's a tree, documents, and with access rights, it's really, really close.
So we managed to, because Django and React, we master our frameworks, we're able to reuse a lot of what we do.
Yeah, we try to cover the whole digital workspace
with the resources we have,
which are growing, but slowly,
and trying to embark the community.
And yeah, it's smart.
And then you're often,
I think Django REST Framework is what you're using, right?
Like you must have been tempted by Django Ninja
and maybe some other tools.
Like how is Django REST Framework holding up for you,
I guess is the question.
I think our approach is
we've been working together for 10 years
like this team
and we had our habits
and the way we do things
and we focused on what we can build
as fast as possible
and we didn't take the time to
like Django Ninja when we started
I was looking at it and I hesitated
but it was really
the beginning of
big
I couldn't find
like a big
project in production
that would make me
feel really safe
to use it
so I just
went on with
REST frameworks
which we were using
for several years
then lately
I saw of course
I saw Django Bolt
and I'm really
really excited
with Django Bolt
but you know
there would be
a lot of rewrites
I think we would
love to
stop
and make this
move but it's also not like you don't need to so if you just focus on what you ship and what you
your impact the tools and your users tools are it's good enough it's we master it we know we
can do whatever we want and we it's not rocket science what we do is really it serializes use
and models we've been doing it for years know how to optimize it we don't even have cash yet on our
dogs or drive and yeah we know we have really room for for optimizations before we need to go to
jungle boats for example so jungle boats super exciting that you can get an awful lot of requests
per second but if your application isn't anywhere hitting the limits of what you can already do
that's a bit off for a rewrite just for fun.
Yeah, and you know, a lot of people on the forums
and very often you see haters like saying,
oh, everything is good about this project
except the choice of Django.
But the truth is,
then they say, oh, Python is so slow
when you choose Django.
But I mean, when you build these applications,
you know that the speed of your application
is really most of the time
it's just in the database
or the way you make your queries.
Exactly, 1,000%.
1,000%.
It's just like,
people don't know
what they're talking about.
Oh my God.
And if we can,
you know,
we are doing API,
so if you can
cache something
at the serialized level
and,
you know,
maybe we are
already super fast
more than what we can do.
In France,
in the United States of America,
we had a video,
like a YouTube platform
equivalence.
And we had
3 million users on it
and we had only one pod
because,
like,
it's just serving video tokens and so everything was in cache and so it could serve like so many
requests with just a bot so yeah sometimes it's just not where the pain is yeah no yeah okay
perfect i wanted to love the urm we love we love the urm in django so okay
i wanted to ask about pro connect which i think is uh sso across government because i think one of
the is it correct one of the challenges before was getting adoption was log in and maybe you
could speak to uh introducing that and why that i think led to a lot more users for you
yeah because basically like i was saying you have 2.9 million uh users in the state agents in the
But they are everywhere, they are in each ministry, they are in small entities, organizations are everywhere and it's nothing like hierarchical, there's no one who can say let's do that and everybody follows, it's a state so it's designed to be complex and have independence between teams so that not one person can decide for everybody, you know, that could be creepy.
So that's also, you need to convince people that your tools are good and to convince them, they need to have access to your tools.
And that could be really, really a headache.
But we were able to put up a SSO, which has everybody behind one button and could log in in one click.
So that was really, really important in our distribution strategy for our tools.
to make it easy
for people to
onboard right
so to give it a
try
kick the wheels
yeah
oh yes
and I think
we get a lot
of inspiration
from UK
which are
really
ahead of us
on this
on all this
government
IT
we get
inspiration
in France
we have
France Connect
we had
France Connect
for end users
with like
100 million
connections
per month
and it was
working really
well
but
So we forked it and used it for agents.
Okay, good.
I wanted to ask you, you mentioned it's obviously a French-based project.
I'm wondering whether other governments in the EU are picking it up and joining in.
Yeah, I would say across the EU there is the subject of sovereignty,
which is growing, and we talk to a lot of governments.
Uh, but, but what we don't have is like, uh, we don't have a common response.
Like everybody say, okay, let's do this.
And everybody, you do this, I do that.
And that's it.
We, we're not able to do this.
So I would say it's important that everybody, the
The concern is rising, and open source is seen as a solution
in several countries, especially Germany, France.
The Netherlands also is joining us on this.
So, yes, there's concern, but I would say we are not there
where our efforts compound, not yet.
We try to work together, but for example, with Germany and Holland and the Netherlands,
we try to work together, but the approaches are quite different.
So I wouldn't say that we're very, very successful to add our efforts to the compound.
But that might come over time, right?
I mean, the European project is still quite nascent.
Yeah, I think whatever steps we take,
eventually we align.
Like, if one country pushes something forward,
another country pushes something else forward,
eventually everybody gets aligned behind what works.
So it's also good that everybody is trying a different approach.
And if you hope that what works gets spread.
As well, one would think that a diversity of approaches will lead to a richer solution in the end.
It might take slightly longer to get off the ground.
But hang on, the Dutch perspective there brings something that we hadn't considered to the table.
Yes, but there are also some ways to go backward sometimes.
You're in the public sector, so you have a lot of pressure, a lot of lobbies.
When you succeed in something, the people come for you.
They can, yeah, you can lose some battles.
You have to continue fighting.
Okay, so you have to hope that you have a positive impact on these things.
But it's never, never ending.
Okay.
The other question that's just at the top of my tongue
is how to get involved.
The listeners have seen last week Numerique
and if they want to download it, install it themselves,
is it easy to get going?
We're trying to make it easy.
I would say it's gotten quite easy on docs,
on the projects that have the biggest community.
So we make it containerized.
We have Docker Compose.
If you go to docs, you pull the repository,
you make bootstrap, nobody works on your laptop.
If you're a developer and you have Docker on your computer,
it should be working within minutes.
Okay.
On going to production, we focus on Kubernetes.
like we provide everything
for Kubernetes deployment
to production in minutes
like ham charts
we have official images
and everything
so and documentation
so if you run Kubernetes
it's easy
if you don't
okay we
you're a bit
yeah
more on your own
more on your own
but if you master Django
it'll be too hard
like it's
yeah
okay so you have
you
If you use Docker Compose in productions,
if you want to build a VM from scratch
the old way, then okay, you're on the old.
Okay, good.
But we hope the community comes also
to contribute all this.
And other projects,
on other projects who are more recent
or on which we did less community work,
maybe there's less documentation,
could be a bit harder.
So still work in progress to really make it easy to deploy.
Right, okay.
I mean, presumably I could reach out, open an issue,
I'm trying to deploy this, I'm trying to do that.
Yeah, of course.
We have metrics channels, which are mentioned in our readmes.
You can open issues.
We're quite active.
We're quite responsive on all this.
One thing maybe is that obviously we build applications for scale.
Like we are talking million users.
So we make some choices, which are like we make object storage first.
We make choices for scale.
OIDC first, everything.
So if you're a very small company and you just want to have a VM
and pay the VM one euro per month
and you want to install everything on it,
you need to be skilled
because you will need to have
an OIDC provider,
you will need to have public storage.
A lot of people,
if you want a very small instance,
they will realize that
it's not what we focus on.
So if you don't have S3, then...
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yeah
but there's
an interesting
contribution
opportunity for
people like
the people who
want to scale
it down to
come along
and you
know
some people
have installed
it on
on the
you know
host
I don't
know if
you know
this project
you know
host
no
no
that's like
maybe it's
French
it's it's
quite it's
quite used in
free software
communities
it's like
box
on which you can self-host a lot of applications
without doing heavy sysadmin.
You can click and install.
So they have put Visio, they've put Grist, Docs.
You can install it with a click.
But I'm not in favor of these approaches so much
because sometimes you make it look like it's easy,
but when you run an object storage cluster,
it's not so easy.
you still need skills in case something goes wrong
so yeah if you hide
too much complexity if you hide
the complexity too much sometimes
people can have problems
yeah I mean that's
something that I always
think about is it's
okay when the complex system is running nicely
but what happens when it breaks can you dig
down and work out what the separate parts are
yeah so I advise
people that maybe if you want to
host it you
You can, we have a proxy that encrypts your data for your S3, for your object storage.
So I would advise that you open a bucket on a provider.
And if you want sovereignty of your data, you can encrypt.
Although you put it on a bucket on the cloud, you can encrypt your data on S3.
At least you don't have to operate it.
You're not scared to lose your data.
That's my advice.
It's cheap to have a bucket, so.
Okay, cool, cool, cool.
Well, there's also, for French hosting providers,
there's Scalingo, which is similar to Heroku.
I actually had a conversation with the developer advocate there,
because I was surprised I hadn't heard about it
until Heroku shut down again.
But they have proc files.
They've been going 10 years.
I believe they work with the government a little bit,
but it's a very, very easy-to-use option.
Yeah, we work with them. So we can deploy to Scalingo. We have some instances on Scalingo.
There's also CleverCloud in France, which does the same thing. It's a pass as well.
And they have how-tos, detailed how-tos of how to deploy docs. Yeah, that's a good option
as well, but maybe more expensive if you're really looking for cheap hosting. So yeah,
Yeah, you basically need solutions for all the profiles.
Yeah, yeah, like one machine, five machines,
hope to manage for me.
You need all of those eventually.
Yeah, yeah.
But the project is very open to contributions, right?
If people want to come in, add to the docs on a deployment story
or something like that, they could do that.
Okay, so the project is started by us.
So that's public agents.
The repositories, there's no open governance
at the moment
but that's one of
one of our main objectives
we are
when we say
we want to do
digital commons
we mean it
we mean that
we want the
governance to be shared
we want to
slowly
we want to
just be
one of the contributors
so we
we were
hoping to bring
we are
we are still hoping
to bring
other countries
companies
integrators
hosters
to contribute
and slowly take over governance with the community.
We are not there yet.
And frankly, we don't know exactly how it will be done,
but that's where we want to go.
I think Docs is a bit ahead
and will be the first repository that we will really open.
Most probably send it to a foundation
and really look for an open governance.
There are some communities,
I don't know how much I can say,
But there are some communities in the open source, in the free software communities that are putting offers to Dynium to take the code and start to organize this for us.
I don't know what will happen.
I frankly don't know.
But I really, really hope that this goes through.
That'd be really cool.
you know
it's a cool thing
you've built
and it's
you know
open source
but then to give it
an open governance model
gives it sustainability
into the
you know
medium and long term
hopefully
and maybe
we can
I'd be interested
to discuss with
like Django people
Django's foundations
and see
because these are
the people
who would be interested
to
to be active
in this community
so
what are the best practices
what are examples
what has been done
and
yeah
at the moment
we are looking
what's possible
yeah
that's a cool
that's a cool
that's a cool
so how did you
end up in this
you know
great situation
like you're
working on
what's a really cool project
in a kind of
socially worthy
thing
at the cutting edge
of technology
doing some really good stuff
and how did you
it's a kind of
dream job
no
to roll in
no no
I wouldn't say
it's a dream job
I don't know if you're linked to it, but it's quite, it's, it's quite, uh, I don't know
how long you can hold on this kind of job, you know, it's quite active and quite exposed
like, so, but when you succeed, when you succeed is good, but, um, not a dream job.
Um, it's, it's, uh, what I was looking for.
So, but it's not easy.
So maybe if it was a bit easier, it would be a dream job.
Uh, well, how did that end up here?
Yeah, I ended up here because, like I said, I was a Fango developer.
I became a developer to grow a family.
I was looking for a job that would really accommodate taking care of a family during the day.
When my kids were small, I was coding at night.
I wanted something really flexible, so I came to coding quite late.
I was like past 30 years old.
And before that, I was working in international commerce.
So it gives me a profile, a double profile of learning coding late
and having an international business experience before.
So that's a strength that really allows me to navigate
in the complexity of public sector
and open-source stuff.
I can imagine in public sector
there's an amount of politics,
there's an amount of people management.
Yeah, and the interesting thing
when you're a developer
and I had also a free software,
strong free software,
I would say background or color.
And so you come with a mission
Like, you see something that goes wrong in your country
or something like digital sovereignty was really an issue.
I've always been sensitive to this,
like really predatory software.
That was always a big issue for me, like really from young.
And I think I came back to this with the excuse of building a family
and having a more flexible job.
But it was in my head that, okay, that's one thing that's important for me.
So, yeah.
And when coming to it, yeah, I started to learn coding for 10 years
as a freelance and slowly moved to really to open source.
And it was progressive.
When I arrived in France University Numerica,
I was coming for open education more than for open source.
I was not really in the open source communities.
I was using Django, but I was not really a free software advocate in France
or known for this.
And then from working in open education,
And slowly, slowly, I started to really know where to start having strategy of how to do it.
How can we make it happen?
And the strategy I'm applying at Dynamics is quite controversial.
It's still quite controversial, even in the free software communities, in the private software.
So because we succeed, people start to see, oh, maybe that's something interesting the way they do it.
But it's controversial.
Like we are in the middle of the open source movement,
the free software movement, and the political things.
We need to convince everybody that this is how you get impact.
This is how you keep control of your software, of your data.
So our success gives this strategy a voice.
But I wasn't sure when I applied it that it was going to work.
I can elaborate a bit more if you want on this.
No, but it seems you have to build on the successes one at a time, right?
You have to, you know, get documents out the door.
And look, it's working and people are using it and it's, you know, within our own control.
Yes.
Yeah.
When you succeed something, then people start to think that, okay, they misunderstood something.
If not, they will think they are right and you must be wrong.
So when you succeed something, then we can talk again that, okay, see this thing you said that I was going to fail, but in fact, I succeeded.
So that's why I succeeded.
Do you agree with this?
Okay, yes, you agree with this.
So now I propose that we go this way.
So that gives us opportunity to maybe build what, you know, it's very interesting that some people come see me and say, okay, we were trying to do this for 20 years in France.
We didn't know how to do it.
please explain how you did it because we want to apply it in other sectors like they like what's
the recipe for this yeah and the recipe is you know there's a big debate here on the make or buy
should you yeah when your government should be coding like people will say no as government you
shouldn't be coding you should just be defining the specifications the interfaces the standards
and that's it your job is done so maybe in some countries that's that's what the the role of the
state is but in france the state sector is much much bigger like yeah we were saying like six
million agents um and i don't think we and the history proves that when you you're not coding
and you're trying to regulate stuff and declare standards and specifications if you're not coding
you have no idea what you're talking about like you know ai is coming and i also have no idea
before i start coding what what it's what it should be now we are working on interfaces i
was mentioning that now that we succeeded some applications we want to make them interchangeable
so that when people sell digital workplaces we we have a standard that we want to call open bureau
And if you comply to these standards,
you can change a drive for another drive,
a video conferencing for another video conferencing,
and it will work in your digital workspace.
And when we started building this,
we realized how difficult it is.
Because it's not just saying that's WebDAV
or that's FTP or whatever.
You can't just say that.
If you don't trust the drive,
doesn't trust the video conferencing application,
you need to go down to the scenario
you need a token for and you need to know what you will allow one application to do in the other
application on behalf of the user or how long a little bit like the s3 policy you know s3 policy
you can craft a s3 policy but you will say you're allowed to push a file at this place at this path
this maximum size this type of file for you have 30 minutes to do it and then that's it yeah and
so you go down to the scenario and you say okay this is how it should work but
if you're not the developer doing it how can you specify it so i'm trying to tell people i can't
if i don't make i can't buy if i don't make i can't specify you know that's exactly it that's
exactly i'm so i'm obviously from britain originally and the the opposite approach was
always taken let's um let's just outsource everything let's do it all in the private
sector for efficient and you know and you know that like all things you can swing the pendulum
one way or the other and it can go too far but the reality is you can't specify software with
sufficient clarity to be able to outsource it totally and so you end up with you know the
history of british it projects over the last 30 years has been one of overspends and um you know
miss miss specifications and then you know budget doubling and all the rest yeah but i think what's
missed in that is like it's not just incompetence like the corruption is is the point there's also
corruption but there's also there's both there's yeah there's everything yeah to the barricades
will yes absolutely but it's also it's a kind of logical impossibility to specify the software up
until you're in the in the weeds writing it right it's something that we have at the smallest scale
writing our own applications, but it must
apply a hundredfold at government
scale.
Yeah, so, and another
thing is
when we started coding, some
people said you need to
give us orders
and so maybe
they're right that it's important
to that
public sector is not going to do everything
on its own. And I
always thought of, like, if I succeed,
if I want to succeed last week,
i cannot just succeed in the french state if i do this in five years someone will come and say
how come french state has its own digital workspace where everybody's doing something else
so the project can only be we are building tools for our agents but building it with open source i
mean public money should go to public code and our ambition should be to to make an alternative to
to what the hegemons we have today that pose a sovereignty issue.
And so we want an open software.
We want open software in Europe.
We want diversity.
And this is the only success.
We can't have success if we don't manage this.
And so when you say that,
then your project has become 10 times harder.
And that's why I'm doing a lot of politics
because I can't just succeed by coding stuff that my users use.
I need to code stuff that the community takes,
that other government takes, that private sector takes,
that everybody should be able to get value from it.
Yeah.
I mean, this is the problem of success.
You're asked to boil the ocean.
You succeeded in one thing and then nine more problems.
And, yeah, it's a success problem, but still a problem.
Yeah, but we had the bigger problem.
So we are in a better place now than two years ago.
We still have a lot of work.
But where would we be if we hadn't started it two years ago?
Like when I joined, there were already two ministers in France
who had asked for derogation to use Office 365
and all the other ministries were asking derogations as well.
Now no one is asking derogations
and they give us part of the money to build a suite.
So we are in a better place
and we think if we continue,
we are allowed to continue and grow out of the state,
it's always something that will be good.
That's really building a digital commons at that point.
you know something of value not just for the citizens of europe but for anywhere anyway um
so that's fantastic can i ask you um you know was it just your historical background that led to
django or you know it's you know okay in my case why django it's my brother so i would i need to
ask my brother why django yeah i think he was doing python and yeah i think why i stick to django is
maybe like I was saying
my background was
I was
I had an engineering background
but not
a developer
and
and so I
I wanted to make things done
like I wanted to
make things
and I was less attached
to the tech
than to what I could do with it
and then that's what I like in Django
like you know
the
the efficiency
batteries included
you can ship something
I really love the
Also, I always liked the Zen of Python in code.
I feel that it's more than the product.
It's more than the code.
It's the community.
I don't know.
I think elsewhere in the world,
there are bigger Django communities,
but in France, it's really small.
In France, PHP has remained bigger than elsewhere
for many reasons.
So Python and Django community is a very small world
where everybody knows each other.
It's like really a family spirit.
And so I was attached to it like very fast.
You know, I was a freelancer, so more or less, you know, everybody.
And there was really like a quality approach to code.
And that's how we existed.
Like the Django community 10 years ago existed
by making things differently than the rest of the world.
That's what I liked.
And now it's the boring tech.
It's really, it works.
It will work in 20 years.
The solution for every problem
is already solved in an elegant way.
I mean, that's the second best tool for anything.
And AI for me is making the choice of Django
even more obvious
because it's the same engineers.
And you see a lot of people from the Jio community
who have now moved to the AI community.
When you go to Python, I went to EuroPython in 2021
and before ChatGPT, and yeah, it was already,
everybody was talking AI.
You have a huge community around AI in Python,
so it makes a lot of sense to do Python today.
And together with Rust, I think it's really also,
it makes it maybe future-proof.
It could be discussed,
but I still feel very comfortable
with this framework.
I think that outside of the US and China,
I mean, France in AI has Mistral,
has Hugging Face.
It's very strong.
I would say it's number three
just in my head
in terms of public-facing companies
that are doing cutting-edge AI stuff.
That's more on the mathematical, I would say.
It's more the mathematical education
than the Python, than the coding.
Like we, I think so,
because all the people you mentioned,
they are from the same school in France.
So there's a very, yeah.
Well, let me make a specific question.
You had mentioned at the beginning
adding AI-enabled features to LaSuite.
Um, how are you doing that?
Is that local models?
Is that like, what models are you allowed to use?
I assume maybe not, you know, anthropic, that's a sovereignty question.
No, no, we don't, we don't use, uh, SAS.
We, we run models locally on our infrastructures.
Uh, so we run them on Kubernetes.
It's become quite easy, uh, now with that, there are a lot of
tools in Kubernetes to do that.
So we run models and we run all types of models.
Like we can run a whisper, we have also live transcoding, LLM, LVM, any type of model we could run.
But our approach to AI is we know our limits.
We're not AI engineers and we try to use AI for our use case.
we try to not invent a use case and we take an existing use case something that really works
already works obviously and we try to bring it to our tools so for example in Visio we will bring
transcription live transcription asynchronous transcription and live transcription summary
of the transcription.
In docs, we have basic editing features
like text generation features.
And in files in the drive, we do a RAG.
We try to index to make semantic search.
We try to work on OCR,
on indexing any type of document efficiently.
So these are all use cases that are mastered
and that really you just need to run a model
and make a little bit of Identique
or a little bit of front-end and make it work.
That's the approach we have now.
As in, it works, but we could be better.
We would need some help.
We could take some help on this part of our products.
But, you know, I look at the, you know, the products coming out of, say, you know, the glossy device company from California and their AI doesn't seem any better.
Yes.
Some people come and say, hey, we come from this tool and we went to dogs and wow, your AI works better.
Okay.
But we only use open source models.
Okay.
I think that's the future.
We could talk longer about that.
Even at, I work at JetBrains,
which makes IDEs, PyCharm,
and you can bring whatever model you want.
So you can bring private models,
you can bring open source models.
And I think, I mean, the inference costs alone,
every three months, I think, are dropping dramatically.
So I suspect that will be more and more important
for cost, for security.
And they're good enough a lot of the time.
I think it's getting better.
there's one one thing in which i believe in ai is you see a lot of experiments
and a lot of people will show you cool things with ai but do they do they control the code do
they control the data and the people's access to bring ai on people's documents and on people's
workflows everyday use of the tools so if your people are if everybody is in office 365 then
you don't choose the model that they'll be using.
So why do you do all these AI projects?
Because your people are everyday in a tool
which you don't control.
You can either pay the AI feature
or don't pay it and you don't get it.
So we believe also that
because we do the infrastructure stuff,
because we do the structural stuff
and control our data and our users,
we'll be able to bring the use case
and to bring usage to the models that we run.
And something that we see very few people manage doing and that we are able to do is that our applications,
we have OIDC to authenticate our users in each of our application and not only our application,
any application in the French state which decides to connect to our SSO is in this federation, in this OIDC federation.
and we use one part of the OIDC spec
which talks about server-to-server authentication.
And so when someone is logged in on one app,
the server of this app can make a call to another app
on behalf of the person who is logged in
with the special access rights which I was mentioning
to secure whether we can get a token
for a special use case.
And so we are able to tell
any application in the French state
would get the right to push a file to our drive
on behalf of the users that it's logged in.
And so this also applies to our chatbots
and to our global search index.
I know Google did it 20 years ago,
but with French agents still didn't have it.
So now we have a global search,
with semantic search, with AI indexation.
And whichever application which is on our SSO
can push data to this global search.
And then users can query this global search
from another application on behalf of the user.
Our chatbot has tools that can interrogate this search
with the access right of the user.
And these very people know how to do that.
So, I mean, safely with keeping control of your data and allowing your users to query data live.
I don't know if I explained it well.
No, you did. That's amazing.
I worked at a startup 10 years ago that was trying to do that for bring your Google in, bring your Dropbox in, bring all your things in and have one search box for everything.
And the permissions were difficult.
They used Algolia, which is that French as well, I think.
Yes, French.
That's our inspiration for GlobalFind.
Yeah, so it's a really good idea.
And it's very difficult to do, I guess, is what I'm trying to say,
because I worked on it a little bit.
Actually, it's not that hard when you control.
Yeah, when you control, maybe it's easier.
We use OpenSearch.
Basically, okay, I did this project.
I started this project in just two weeks.
It's a very, very basic project.
It's in the 100 lines of code.
It's called Find.
You can find it in our GitHub.
called Find. It's basically an open search
with two views.
One to push data.
To push data, you need
to have a token,
a service account, and any app
that gets a service account can have its
own index and push data, so that's very
basic. And on the
front-end side for queries,
we use this resource server,
this OIDC resource server specification,
and then it's really easy
because you just need a field
for each document that's being pushed.
We have one field with the list of users
who have direct access, specific access to this document.
We have another field for any group
that have access to this document.
And we have a few flags to say if it's public reach
or it could be not restricted to these people
or to these users or groups, but it could be public.
And with just this, we're able to secure access
and make a search that is restricted
to what you can access.
So it's really, actually,
really basic.
And the resource server part
is a specification.
We have a few classes,
a few hundred lines of Python
to check those tokens
with the OIDC provider.
But it's really not rocket science.
And that's really...
It's very, very cool, though.
Right, it's very cool.
Even someone who doesn't know
how to code can...
That solves a big problem for them.
right yes that's a big problem and if you don't know how to do this you know i see my some
colleagues who come up with oh we have this ai demo it's really cool and then tell them okay
how are you going to plug it how are you going to give it to people and plug it to their tools
and that's becomes it just becomes much harder okay so can i ask what's on the roadmap for
last week numeric because you seem to have gone from strength to strength and what's the one thing
that we miss and that people are asking us a lot is we we have the chat bot we have the chat sorry
the instant messaging and we have video people are asking for teams basically for chat for slack
the slack is like yeah so that's something people ask um and that's something we don't
want to leave unanswered.
So yeah, that's something that's next for our suite.
We don't know yet what technology.
And maybe that's one of the weaknesses in Django
to everything web sockets at scale.
So we don't know yet whether we use metrics,
whether we'll use something like K-pop
serving another language.
We're not sure yet.
We know Django is not the best tool for that at the moment
channels and maybe i missed something and i'd be interested if someone thinks that
it's the ease of scaling that um i mean you know there's um so the the tool i'm looking at at the
moment actually is called hornbeam which is written by um benoit um who certainly escapes
me this moment but he's the been the maintainer of gunnicom for unicorn for a long time he's put
out an Erlang server with Python integration as well.
I saw him in Fosdam.
I met him in Fosdam.
But that's a lovely looking project in terms of if you want
the kind of low latency, high concurrency environment
of Erlang, and then you can have your application logic
in Python doing your normal thing.
So it's a server called Hornbeam that I've been buying up
very, very much.
so another thing that we're working on now but it's quite advanced we are finalizing the first
box proof of concept is uh end-to-end encryption on all our tools okay so yeah so like uh we'll
have a global enrollment to get your private key and we have or yeah multi-device enrollment on to
get a key and once you have a key globally for a suite yeah any application can re and ask for
to encode something in the browser and then when we did our application we thought of we thought
that we knew that we wanted to go this way so dogs drive everything is already planned to be
into an encrypted like like the server is dumped um so that's one thing we also have a big challenge
to, of course, continue growing the community,
continue getting more active users in the front states,
because that's how people evaluate our work.
Okay, so there's the entry point for a question then.
Okay, Django users listening to the show think,
hang on, I want to check this out.
What's the entryway to LastSuite's community
and to get involved?
Probably our GitHub, github.com slash suite numeric.
Maybe you can give the link.
From our GitHub, you can see the different projects
and on the readme, you find the metrics channel.
You can open issues.
You can talk to us like this.
You can find us on maybe on social networks,
Mastodon, Twitter, or LinkedIn.
That's what you need.
You need to make a social network for the French state.
Something that's not some of those.
okay one thing that's happening that we didn't talk about is that we one thing that we succeeded
doing with other european countries is we did an edict it's a european infrastructure
oh i saw this yeah because you gave a presentation i'll put a link with a
leia german colleague i think or uh yeah yeah yeah but that that just started the edict was
created end of december 2025 and the the new director has just been appointed and will start
working and so edic is here to organize uh investment in commons at the european level
and there should be big project big financing coming and that could be piped to this uh
consortium so we we hope cross fingers that but the european commission has announced that they
They want to push open source at the European level.
So the EDIC is a good vehicle for this.
And there is a strong, strong will to push social network, open source and more.
There is this will.
I'm not sure it will be our team.
I don't think it will be done at the French state level.
Once you have this edict with financing inside,
I think it goes much beyond what we can do inside.
the french government yeah i mean there's been a lot of um good stuff come out of i think it's
the german sovereign tech fund um which is in a similar space i really i love and also ngi
do you know ngi no i haven't heard of ngi what's that one it's uh an l net okay i'm not sure um
that's okay sovereign tech fund is to to finance the maintenance of core open source libraries
like FFmpeg or SSH,
these kind of core projects.
And they just give them money
and they evaluate their success
by the impact on everybody
in the companies
who have dependencies
on these libraries.
So the project is really
to make it more stable.
NLNet is financing
very small projects
that most of the time
is like a group of two,
three developers who say,
hey, I'm going to code a new object storage,
decentralized object storage with Rust.
And they say, oh, okay, we give you 50K for that.
And they literally take two days
to decide to give you 50K.
And then it's done by developers.
It's done by really technical people.
So they really look at your code,
they look at your pull request,
they're going to really a technical evaluation
of what you did.
And so it's a really efficient way to finance innovation,
open-source innovation.
And a lot of projects that we use in LastFit
come from NLNet.
So, for example, in Docs, the editor,
the BlockNot editor is financed by NLNet.
It's a Dutch guy who was financed by NLNet.
There are many small projects that come from this financing.
Yeah, we'll put a link to it.
I see that, I think their budget is a lot bigger
than the Sovereign Tech Fund.
It's maybe 10 times bigger.
So, Carlton, you should apply.
Maybe, maybe, maybe.
I think that's for young people.
And then it could be like what we think,
like there's one, the thing that is in between
and that we need to finance more
is a project that is not just getting started
and did more than 50K.
For example, let's say social network,
let's talk about Nostodon or whatever other software
that's here or platform that's here
and that could grow or that would need financing.
They could be doing this.
It would be cross-border projects
that need to get more traction and get bigger.
Digital workspace is one.
Cloud infrastructure is another key sector to boost.
AI maybe, but AI is capital intensive.
So maybe we will burn a lot of money and have less impact.
So I would say digital workspace is one first thing to succeed,
to have a strong structure,
know how to take care of your data and host your projects.
Okay, so lots of exciting avenues there.
Do we want to do the projects and books just as we finish up?
Maybe, I think, do you want to go first?
Is there a book that you wanted to recommend, Samuel?
Yeah, among tech books, there's one book that really saved my life.
So I recommend it to anybody who's talking to me about tech more than two minutes.
That's the Mikado method.
I don't know if you read that book.
I haven't read it.
Carlton, you must have read it.
You haven't read it?
No, I haven't, but I'm going to.
Yeah, I'm going to buy it.
So Mikado method is,
when I joined
France Université Numérique,
I had this big
project, legacy project.
It was a fork of Open edX.
And it was really,
Open edX is a huge code base
and I had like thousands of commits of fork on Open edX
and something like really, really stuck in production
with 3 million users.
And I came to this project, everybody had left,
like all the developers had been fired.
And I was like alone with this huge code base.
And I thought I'm really good at Django, you know,
but when I look at the code base, I don't understand anything.
It's not the best practice code,
Like Open edX has come some really, really complex parts.
And I was really depressed about it.
There were two CTOs who resigned before me after taking the job.
They stayed two months and they resigned.
I was the third one to cry.
Yeah.
And I told my brother about this and he said, okay, you should buy this book.
This book is awesome because, you know, the game, the Mikado game,
where you have all the sticks.
Oh, you can only move one of them.
Yeah, okay.
You have all the sticks,
you put them on the table,
they are intertwined.
And then you try to take one
without moving the others.
And that's what you're trying to do with your code.
You try to find the stick that you can take
and then once you manage to take a stick
without breaking all the rest,
you build it out of the monolith.
and so that's what i did i did for six years and what it's really interesting is that from day one
you're able to take a mikado and prove to your management that you're moving ahead like when
they hired me they said we are not able to change come up with one feature in one year we are stuck
with this code base if you touch something it breaks yeah so once i find a mikado like one
months in the job, I was able to say,
okay, you have a new tool. Now you have
a new feature in this tool because I built
it aside. And then
we kept on taking Mikado and
eventually rebuilt.
Of course, it becomes a
microservice infrastructure
because you take your Mikado and make services.
But from day one,
you have impact. As a CTO, you can prove
that, okay, now I'm through it.
Although you don't understand a
word of all these monoliths,
yeah so this book is game-changing for someone who really comes to a big legacy
code base and to show what they can do i'm actually having flashbacks as you're describing
the situation of trying to extract this one bit of code i'm like oh yeah yeah i need this book
i'm gonna i'm definitely gonna buy it so good and it's worse if you don't have tests if you
have tests it's maybe too easy carlton you know you can always write a selenium test around the
outside or something right there's something horrible yeah the books give you detailed
techniques of how to you know they have a technique where you pull the mikado and if you see
too many things come together you put it back you just roll back you just yeah you just get reset
and then you start another way you start another way you start they have a whole technique to say
oh maybe this is a good way yeah yeah good perfect i like it okay i'm good i'm good i'm gonna order
that later as soon as we literally save my life okay great um so my book is um girl with the
dragon tattoo by stig larson which i'm just picked up some i saw it on kindle i saw okay i'm gonna
get that it was the the the millennium series trilogy uh the millennium trilogy i'm fairly
sure that paolo melancholy has mentioned this as his sort of one of his favorite books and i saw
it and i was like oh it's on special right i'm gonna i'm gonna get that and it's good i'm enjoying
it i'm just having a couple of you know a couple of quiet uh a couple of quiet weeks away from the
textbooks i'm reading those um yeah can you put it in the the command sorry go ahead put it
put it in the show notes sorry i don't understand yeah yeah in the notes yeah i didn't get the
title so oh yes go with the dragon tattoo or in other languages i think it's called the men that
hated women or didn't like women or something like that it's it's like 15 15 years ago i think
it was a big
big thing
maybe 20
yeah
but yeah
I mean they were filmed
a bit and all the rest
but there's a trilogy
and the trilogy
was all in one
and I was like
oh I'm fairly sure
I've heard Paolo
ranting about how he loves
this collection of books
well the protagonist
is a female coder
right so
you have to love it
right
she solves
problems with code
okay I'll go
I'm going to say
a non-tech book
a Confederacy of Dunces
which is not a new book
it's an American book
about
politics and uh i'll just say it seems still ever more relevant so uh it's a very good book
i'm reading it again and um it looks really big oh oh no it's no okay okay no i i had it
close to the camera yeah no it's a classic it won a pulitzer prize and um
Um, yeah, I will refrain, refrain from saying more, um, quick, quickly projects.
I'm going to highlight, um, Django live translations.
I'll put a link into, uh, the show notes.
This is a very recent project, um, in browser translation editing for Django super users.
So I have, we'll give it more of a play, but anything that does translations is interesting
to me.
So I'll put a link in that.
Okay.
Either one of you.
About the project?
Yeah.
Yeah, we mentioned earlier
like Django Bolt.
That's a project
that really got me excited
when I read about it.
Like I said,
to really use it with La Suite,
it's quite a rewrite.
Yeah.
But maybe with AI,
we can pull it off.
Well, I mean,
I think Farhan,
we had him on the podcast
who created it.
I believe he's still taking freelance opportunities,
so maybe a special project, he can do it.
Yeah.
I will mention, since you've mentioned Django Bolt,
I saw today on LinkedIn that he's got sponsorships
available now for the Django Bolt project.
So, you know, any listeners who are interested in that
could, you know, help out by just taking a small sponsorship
of a hand there for his work.
Yeah, he got his first one.
Keep it going.
my project is related um it's uh it's i'm gonna i want to mention the tech and power benchmarks
that have been the the big um web web framework speed off for the last 10 15 i can't remember how
many years they've been around but they've been around for a long time i just wanted to call them
out because they're being sunsetted and there was a pull request opened or an announcement open that
they're being sunsetted there and it's been like wow that has been a sort of um sort of pillar in
the API frameworks discourse
for ages and ages
and ages, but yeah,
the TechEmpower benchmarks, so
pull one out for those, because that's been a decade
or more of really good work for the community.
Okay, we'll put a link to that.
Was that new to you,
that benchmark? Yeah, it's new to me.
It's worth checking.
They've got these crazy frameworks written
in assembly language that
can do 85 million requests a
second on a
single socket
or I don't
you know
exactly
this kind of
thing
okay
I guess
sorry very
very last
question Samuel
is there any
if there's
something about
Django
if you have a
magic wand
one thing you
can change
what would you
like to change
about the
framework
what I was
mentioning earlier
like a better
support for
web RTC
for
yeah
No, sorry for WebSockets.
Sockets, sockets, yeah.
WebSockets, yeah.
Maybe I'm not up to date, but when I, yeah.
Carlton, you're still maintaining channels, right?
Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I mean,
I think channels is perfectly capable.
It depends on, you know, what you're trying to do,
what throughputs, et cetera.
But yeah, I mean.
We were running Django channel at scale
in my previous job.
with the same team
and when I
the other day
said okay
let's use it again
the engineers
who were taking
care of the project
said well
no
I don't know
exactly what
what the
problem was
but they said
it was not easy
to scale
and was not
optimal
maybe
I would
I am pretty
I'm pretty sure
that
some native
native
more native
support for this
in Django
at scale
like
for sure
yeah i think the issue is ultimately um about the need to jump um it's not about channels it's not
about the way you know the websocket implementation around channels none of that it's about the need
to um handle the sync to async jump um yeah in the orm and that's the same everywhere so
completing the um the orms async story is ultimately what's the difficult bit yeah that's
support for async overall
in Django.
Yeah, it's that
the bit of the async story
that's still being completed is
the async support in the ORM.
It's down to the cursor level
because the cursors, even
if you've got async cursors, it's still a synchronous
connection. It's just that that's pushed into
the PsychoPG library rather than
into the Django.
And would you say that we are making progress
and it just takes time or are we stuck on it?
No, it's ticking over.
It is making progress.
It's coming along.
There's a nice third-party package now
which has got a kind of proof-of-concept stage there
for fully async down to the cursor level.
But then as people are exploring it,
they're like, ah, but this is happening
and this is happening.
And those really hard issues are coming up.
And this is why it has to be done in a third-party.
People are always like,
why can't we merge it straight into Django?
And the bottom line is because we can't experiment in Django.
The stability guarantees and the lifecycle are too long.
And so there's this third-party package.
It could eventually land into the core later.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, no, exactly.
Yeah, it's coming.
But the context managers around which context you're sharing the connection between
and do you need to maintain the same connection
for multiple calls into the ORM
over the life cycle of that single?
There are so many weird edge cases.
And the bottom line is there aren't really
any async ORMs out there.
There just aren't.
So I think a lot of people that are doing async code at scale,
they're doing it with raw cursors rather than...
Please remind me that when the edict is...
If the edict works,
that would be one of the projects that we should found.
We should find that there will be a huge impact.
Right, okay, okay, okay.
Yeah, no, so, okay.
When you get it up and running, ping us
and we'll see if we can get an application.
Yeah, yeah.
I think now with Django in last week,
we are greatly tied to Django's future.
So, yeah, we should be definitely interested
to support this community.
Yeah, I mean, I think if we can get the ORM story
down to the cursor level,
obviously working with the context managers
that you need and all the rest of it if we can get that story finished then the async story is
complete um and it's not at the view level which is that's all working perfectly fine it's that
when people need to call to the orm they do an async to async and there are complications around
and then one more thing if i can add one more thing on on typing like yeah yeah i personally
didn't i'm a bit like uh david kramer's take to say okay okay he said i'm not going to code
Python anymore, but I'm not down to this level.
But developers around me are really into typing, and I didn't convert this, so I have big
questions about it. And with AI, I feel maybe, you know, on one side, we say we are going
stop writing code and not the other way we we make the writing the code more painful um like i i in
openai sdk i i found one one day i i was in the file in the openai sdk where there were literally
like 1000 lines just for the function declaration yeah right okay you know the type the type of the
function it was up to 1000 lines and i thought to myself well this is going too far what are
we doing like i really love the zen of python the readability the easiness and like typing for me it
doesn't i don't i think we made it it at least i i'm not using it and i i find it hard to convert
to this
so maybe
AI
and AI
is not going
this way
AI should
understand
types
should be able
to add types
without me
like
that's one of
the things
where
I'm not sure
I would like to
I'm not sure
where we should
go on this
yeah
I gave a
this is one of my
topics I've got
at the moment
I gave a talk
recently at
JetBrains
PyTV event
in Amsterdam
that perhaps
we'll put the link
again in the show notes
but my talk was
but it was called
Static Islands Dynamic C
and the idea is that
Django's core
is designed around
dynamic patterns
and so it's going to be
very hard for us to add
you know type hints there
we'd have to rewrite
the whole thing basically
but on top of that
we can put
you know
nice static islands
where they help
but the question is
where does it help
you know
nice data classes
that have
you know
the type annotations
in there that tell you
those are useful things
that's one thing
it's knowing where to hold the line
I think if we try and retrofit
typing into the core of Django we will struggle
because it's deliberately built around
patterns which
Python's type system can't express
yep
well that sounds like a whole other
episode
you will have to come back on Samuel
I'm not competent on this subject
so I'm just hoping
that you don't ask me to write
function
definitions that
go up to the
1,000 lines.
If AI writes it for me, why not?
I'm going to stop reading Python as well.
I read
something, David Kramer said something
like this, I thought, okay, at least one guy agrees
with me.
David's always good for a controversial point as well.
Okay, in the interest
of time, we will have links
to everything in the show notes.
Samuel, thank you so much
for taking the time to join us
and thank you for all of your work.
It's very inspiring to see
what you and your team have accomplished.
Yeah, I hope we go much further
and I love being in this community.
I hope that there's a lot of nice things
coming for our projects.
All right, jangochat.com and on YouTube
and we'll see everyone next time bye-bye thank you thanks again to six feet up the python django
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