Transcript: Listen Notes - Wenbin Fang

I'm Will Vincent, joined as always by Carlton Gibson.

Hi, Carlton.

Hi, Will.

Hi, how are you?

How are you?

Thank you for joining us.

And that actually blew up on Hacker News recently and justifies a lot of the points that Carlton and I try to make around keeping it simple even at scale.

So we'd love to talk to you about how you do that.

So for folks who don't know, what is Listen Notes?

What's the quick pitch?

Yeah.

It's like Google, but for podcasts.

So you type in keywords and then you can search the whole internet, podcasts, and episodes.

And we also provide APIs for developers.

If you want to build a podcast app or podcast VLT services, just use our API to search podcasts, to fetch podcast metadata.

So if I want if I wanted to make an app best Django podcasts, I could use your API and I'd come up with a list of um Django podcasts.

So Django chat would be the number one Django podcast, and I could listen to that.

Yeah, probably the one and only.

Yeah.

Yep.

Super.

And how long have you been uh working on this?

So I started Discent Nose as a side project in early 2017, January 2017.

I spent probably one week saw together a quick prototype for this EndNote.

And then I didn't touch the code base for about nine months.

Because during that time I was running my first startup, which eventually failed.

And in September 2017, I left the startup, I co-founded, and I needed to find something to do.

So I picked up listen notes and worked on it a little bit, and I worked on it full-time, and I incorporated it as a company, a one-person company.

And then until now.

Actually, this bind uh would be the two-year anniversary for Listen Nose.

Oh, wow.

As a company.

Congratulations.

Yeah, it's really good.

Thank you.

But I but I hire some uh contractors, ONO for different things, like design, content, or some uh front-end development, something like that.

Yeah.

So one thing I wanted to ask you, because for beginners to Python, they hear something like, I did a prototype in a week or a weekend, and it sounds unimaginable.

So I'm so I wonder if you can recall.

So what did that actually involve?

I mean, start project, like what is a what does a bare bones prototype look like before this?

Because that's something that yeah, uh newcomers don't understand how that can be done.

Yeah.

So if you look at uh listennotes.com today, uh it's quite complex.

Uh it has a search engine, it has a playlist, it has API, a lot of things.

But back to the beginning, uh the project requirement was very simple.

I just want to search podcast episodes.

Let's see a search bar, type in keyword, see the search results.

That's it.

And uh I basically started uh with uh the Django template.

Uh I I believe the command line is Django start or something like that.

Yeah.

So start a simple start project.

So basically I started uh the Bellbone project, uh added one view uh for the for the search for the search page.

And I I spin up uh uh Elasticsearch instance and index data.

And uh so basically I have three digital ocean instances, one for web server running Django, one for uh Elasticsearch, and then one for um Postgres database.

Where did that come from?

Right to pop your

Also, podcasters can submit themselves.

So let's say today you start podcast today, uh you you need to submit your podcast to somewhere.

You submit to Spotify, to iTunes, and listen notes.

So every day we we are getting uh close to 100 podcast submissions from podcasters themselves.

So Elasticsearch, that's not a that's not a simple thing to spin up.

I mean clearly you've worked with Elasticsearch before, right?

So basically I I follow um some simple nodes I took um a few years ago setting it up.

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was not too difficult.

Single node because you meant to have the duplication and the replicas, and that's when it starts to get a bit hairy because you're

Yeah.

Yeah, well, uh it's especially relevant to me because at DjangoCon this year I gave a talk on search, um talking about basic search and then uh with Postgres built-in search.

Um I'm curious, did you ever consider using built-in um you know the full text search in Postgres?

Or did you already know Elasticsearch?

So did was that a case?

So I actually use uh Postgres full text search for my other small side projects with a small amount of data.

Uh at the beginning of this uh this SendNouse project, I did some testing with uh Postgres uh full text search.

Uh it was very slow, if I remember correctly, it was very slow, so I gave up quickly.

Uh maybe because of the amount of data that we need to index.

Oh, it changed a lot?

Well, what

particular, right?

Oh, okay.

Probably you guys don't update your podcast much, but you know, if you have the whole internet podcast data at any given time, there are some podcasts changing their description, title, ISS feed, audio URL, all kinds of things.

Could you describe the setup of workers you're using to you know pull in this information?

So for workers, basically they are asynchronous processing uh touch workers.

I use salary, C E R Y.

Your audience are familiar with salary.

Um yeah, so yeah, we still some uh so basically salary is uh uh is a hookup with uh uh salary bit, which is a scheduler like Chrome.

Yeah.

So we have some scheduled tasks like for for cloning data, uh pouring data from ISS feed to a new episode, and salary also handles other async tasks, um uh mostly compute-intensive tasks, like uh sending emails, uh uh resizing images, uh doing heavy database queries, things like that.

Yeah.

Well, I like that this is, I mean, your use case is such a it's complex, but it's also simple, and that you can understand that it's uh you know it's not tons and tons of workers, it's you know emails and checking for changes to the podcast directories.

Um so it makes a lot of sense.

So I um so how much may and I know you have all sorts of actually could you talk about so you have monitoring involved, and I you've listed a whole bunch of tools, right?

So because other so that otherwise you couldn't sleep at night.

Uh what how did you think about or how did you baby step from that, right?

Like if you recall, like what did you start with, and then now obviously you have a lot of monitoring going on.

Okay.

You know, if someone's saying, okay, which what do I start with, right?

Because there's so many you can add.

So high level, you need to know the website is up, the API is up, right?

Yeah, so uh for monitoring, I use Datalog.

And Datadog uh is connecting to PageOD for alerting.

And for Datadog, uh we uh continuously uh pin the uh website and the API endpoint and check the response to see if it's uh 200, it's no 500.

Right.

And if it's no 200, then probably something broken and uh I will get alert.

So high level you need to have this kind of stuff.

But for individual components, uh you also need to monitor some matrix.

Like for Postgres, you need to monitor a few things for Redis and other few things, Libya NQ, uh Elasticsearch, yeah.

Each of them I all have one or two alerts associated with this.

Yeah.

And I think you mentioned for Django itself, you use rollbar.

Is that still the tool that you like to use?

So I get the stack trace, the full stack trace if something's wrong.

Yeah.

Well, uh, so Carlton and I spoke, and we wanted to ask you about, so you uh sort of proudly don't use Docker at all.

Um and Carlton is big on this wagon.

And no Okay, make the case.

I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Docker repositories down or relevant, like right.

You want a VM and you want to bang your application on it and you want to run it the good old-fashioned simple way.

Because that VM will never go down.

That will you you'll never have port issues, you'll never have network issues.

Like, you don't need all this massive containerization stuff until you're scaling up to something much, much, much bigger.

And look at what Wembin's doing single-handedly.

Right?

So that that would be the way I'd phrase it.

So what's your experience?

I was gonna ask if it if it would be different if you had a team of developers, because to me, that's in some ways the biggest advantage is on a team having the same local setup um separate from Yeah.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts?

Yeah.

For the workload I'm running for the team, I have basically it's just me as a backend engineer.

So Docker is good to provide a standardized container.

It is about it is very portable.

So you can run Docker container on your local dev, you can run the same container in stages, in production, you can spin up CI with Docker containers.

It's very convenient.

It's very easy to scale up and down.

But for my situation, well, I run all these servers for many, many months.

So I don't need to scale up and down often.

And I don't have a team, uh, so it's just me.

Uh I basically set up everything.

I don't need standardization for other people.

You you might have, say, you want you you mentioned RabbitMQ.

Well, maybe you don't want to install the whole Erling VM and all the rest of it and to use a container there to locally use RabbitMQ while you're developing or testing.

That seems that'd be that's one useful case where you you know you don't need to go the whole hog with Docker.

You don't have to jump into Kubernetes or whatever to get to use it

Yeah, so for for my previous uh job, uh so previously I I worked in Nextdoor, a local social network website.

Yeah, and um in 2014, uh I believe it was me who introduced Docker to the company.

And uh so when did Docker come out?

Maybe 2013.

Right, okay.

So basically we standardize the uh the dev environment for all the engineers with Docker containers, and so it's easy to set up.

Onboarding is easy, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So because you you get that you get the development VM and you just be able to vagrant up and it would run, and but it's slow and heavy, and it's much nicer.

Okay, for this and notes.

And but Docker is quicker and lighter, and you know.

Yep.

I can see why people like it for the development environment.

Yeah.

Speaking of deployment, so you're on AWS, is that right?

Mm-hmm.

I'm curious if you talk about your experience maybe with AWS versus other ones you've used professionally.

So I uh earlier on I mentioned that I spin up three digital ocean.

Oh, yeah, you said

I don't know, because because it's very lightweight or cheap.

Uh yeah, or whatever.

I had three instances for listeners as a side project.

I used the same setup for many banks.

Uh maybe one year after I started this side project, I migrated to ARS.

Uh the reason was very very simple because I started to work in WeWork, and we work gave you um $5,000 ARS credit.

And then I migrated to ARS.

Uh I mostly just use uh EC2 instance.

Okay.

I I don't want to uh have uh vendor login uh with uh adres.

Uh yeah.

Uh anything else?

Oh, I I also use S3.

Yeah, I think you in S3 and Cloud Pro your for your front end.

Yeah.

Because Amazon, I mean like each of the big services, they've got you know 50, 60 different things that you can use if you want to.

But like if you just focus on S3 or just focus on EC2 or you know, like two or three of the core services and get to know those, yeah, it's not any more complex than any other provider.

It's just that they've also got quick site and you know all these million AI offerings.

And do you need all of them?

Can you talk about that transition and at what point you switched over to the to using a dedicated front end?

Actually, at the very beginning, I started to use good for you.

Uh so basically Django uh ran the renders uh uh the the boilerplate for HTML and then React uh render uh components inside uh HTML page.

But so that first weak prototype you also uh hooked it up with React and Django Rest framework?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I'm just trying to think that's that's gonna um you know it's it's sort of uh something you can do when you have experienced listeners.

You can you can whip these things up, but I know that all those things sound like uh just because I get so many questions about all of that, it's um it it takes some practice.

But once you get to know other steps, right, you're sort of duplicating your own steps, right?

For I'll just do my this is how I hook in React.

Um yeah.

For for React, you're

But uh I said that is a now nowadays you can find a lot of such tools if you want to get started uh quickly.

Well I always wonder how how good they are and how much you understand them, because I mean you can use them, but then if you don't know what's going on.

But again, it's that it's that first prototype versus you know what you end up with eight two years later.

Well, and uh and just in terms of Django frameworks, um, Cookie Cutter is probably the top one by far.

I mean, I have my own one, Django X, that's simpler by design.

Um, but I'm always curious if there's others out there I'm not aware of because it's there's and actually a Django X, uh so my own one is at this middle ground where it's basically just basic site with templates and authentication and custom user model.

Um but I could make it how I start my projects now, which would be a lot more complex.

It would make sort of become cookie cutter, but I feel like that would make it less relevant to beginners who just want something up and going.

So there is sort of this tension um you know between yeah, simple and then what you would actually use.

Uh you know, because cookie cutter is fantastic, but it's it's um you need to know what you're doing to use it.

Um now something near and dear to Carlton's heart.

So the API, can you talk about managing the performance on the API and any sort of steps you've made along the way uh to serve all the data that you do?

So, okay, so as I said, I started uh listen notes uh as a side project, and then I worked on it full-time starting uh in September 2017.

And then after I ran this website for a couple of months or so, I got some requests from developers asking if I provide APIs.

And so that was the end of 2017.

I was not sure whether API can be a viable business or whether it deserves my time.

Right.

So uh I did some Googling, I found an API marketplace called uh Marsh Ape, M-A-S-H-A-P-P-E.

Yeah, it doesn't exist anymore.

It was acquired by a startup by RAPI uh called Rapid API.

So they rebranded this thing as Rapid API right now.

It still exists with a different name.

Okay.

So I found this API marketplace, Marsh Ape.

Uh it basically it handles the payment, it handles API analytics, it measures how many API requests uh user uh API users use during the building cycle.

So they can do the do the building calculation and handle some educations.

Or if a developer subscribes to your API plan and unsubscribe and then subscribe again.

Okay, so good.

They handle all these things.

So basically, what I needed to do was to provide a few API endpoints, and I hook up with their service.

Okay, sounds easy.

So I spent about two hours uh using Django waste framework, uh, building three endpoints, API endpoints.

One for search, one for fetching podcast metadata by ID, one for fetching episode metadata by ID.

That's it.

So I think these are the minimum requirement for building a podcast app if you want to use my API.

Okay, so after two hours, I had the API business running, and people slowly sign up, but I didn't touch the API uh for about one year.

You know, API business has a long cycle.

Today, someone discovered this and not API good.

They sign up.

So API is slow.

Uh I so yeah, I didn't I didn't put some any effort on API for about one year.

So the end of 2018, well, I saw some uh serious usage of API.

So tens of apps signed up by the point and some paid users.

So I decided to uh to replace the API for the API gateway stuff.

So I I wanted to build my own uh pay-ban, my own uh API analytics stuff.

So they will be API V2.

So I built this whole thing uh in the beginning of this year when it's running now.

How long did

Was that

three months?

Three months.

Yes.

So three binds for me is a huge project.

Uh it's unusual.

Well, I like

but I had to get it done.

Right.

Um wow.

Man, I'm so impressed by that.

So so the business itself now, so how does um in broad strokes?

So you have the API that you charge for, you have ads on the site itself.

Uh, how do you think about the business kind of where now and where you want it to be long term?

Uh I'm doing fine.

Uh it's not going out of business any sooner.

So uh but uh yeah, I'm I start to see in uh big picture on what's the long term.

So basically, I uh so this I I want listen notes to make podcasts uh accessible in general.

So then let me explain a bit.

So how many people in the world right now?

Probably 8 billion, close to 8 billion.

How many people listen to podcasts today?

Uh less than 100 million, maybe less than 50 million.

So there's still a lot of room to grow for podcasts or spoken audio in general.

So we human beings uh get information through eyes and through ears.

Yeah.

Most big companies nowadays are basically focused on screen time.

Yeah.

Getting information through eyes.

But uh I think audio has uh huge potential uh in in in the in the future.

You know, some uh some companies like Apple are making AirPods, uh uh Amazon, they're making uh ACO, these are all uh voice first products.

Um yeah, my instinct talking is uh audio could be something.

Yeah.

So if you can you can help people find audio content, maybe you will be a good business.

Yeah.

And let's come back to listen.

How can listen notes help podcasts become accessible?

So we don't so at this point we don't build apps.

We don't we don't build our our own contents.

It's a it's a website.

Website is easy for people to discover, to share, right?

And especially for international users.

And also we provide APIs so developers can quickly build podcast-related services using the API.

They don't need to worry about the backend.

And this can somehow help the innovation uh in the application space for podcasts, making podcasts more accessible.

Yeah, this is why I think.

If you go to website, you scroll down to a button, you see that you can switch to different languages.

And are you using the built-in the built-in Django tools for this or what do you Yes,

It's very good.

I'm very satisfied with uh with Django for for this.

So basically I generate a bunch of uh Django.

Uh and then I outsource for translators to translate into different languages.

Yep, very easy.

Because there are I know there are services that offer the find your translators, or do you do you have to um have a relationship with indiv individual translators?

It's called Trantifacts, it is like a service.

Uh I I I can send you the link for the show notes.

I mean it's interesting because lots of people have.

So you can you you you you can see the English and the translated text uh side by side, and it's easy to translate.

And they also um have has have partnership with some translation agencies, so you can directly pay those agencies on the service.

But for certain languages, that's uh I cannot find translators layer, so I need to uh post on upwork to find individual translators.

Yeah.

I mean, I was when I was in San Francisco, I worked at a company called Quizlet and I worked a lot on the uh translation, which was um literally we would get, you know, a a Chinese teacher in San Francisco to translate the site.

It you know, it was very we found a couple users and then we scaled up from there, and um, it's it's no easy thing.

So it's impressive that you have all these languages.

And it takes uh yeah, the the maintenance, right?

I mean that's sort of the I mean, like for example, I was reading through like I think I I caught a typo in one of your pages.

I forget if but you know if that were a word that would be something then in every language next time you run through you have to translate.

Yeah so but still it's nice it's still nice for it to see a site in your own language obviously I mean I'm certainly guilty of assuming everything's in English so um

Are you up to date?

Are you on Python 3.7 3.8 this week are you are you on Django uh 2.2

so I'm using Django 2.1 and Python 3.6 3.6 point eight okay so with strings yeah I started this announce in early 2017 so back then the latest version was nine point uh 1.9 I believe I updated twice along the way 1.9 to 2.0 and 2.0 to 2.1 for

Django and how have you how have you found that process?

Did you was it easy did you hit

So uh primarily uh Ubuntu Django Postgres elastic search I like to keep the uh keep using almost the latest version not the latest one maybe second to the latest one yeah yeah

ining uh new features you need to invest time to maintain this whole thing uh yeah for each upgrade basically I would uh change so so basically I use Ansible to do the server provisioning I version control the Ansible configuration files for each upgrade I bump the version number in Ansible configuration files and I will test on my local dev inside uh Vagor and the virtual box yeah yeah and then I test on this is right staging and

if things go well okay I launch new production instances change the loads load balancer uh setting pointing to new servers and I will keep the old instance running for a couple of days and then terminate them.

Yeah pretty standard process

Well I was gonna ask how do you handle um like when you need to do a database migration perhaps changes the structure of the data and then you want to migrate it from staging to production.

So you're gonna add a new field or how how would you how would you handle a more complicated migration

What happened if I I need to add a new column to a big table what happened if I need to add uh index to a big table something like that.

So most the Django uh my migration uh is is enough for for for migrating the the schemas uh but sometimes I need to modify the migrant script to put in some raw SQL

I mean you're you use stripe atlas to incorporate I mean you must have been one of the very first users for that right I think that probably I mean so did you consider you know a C Corp versus an LLC I mean because if you're so you know obviously C Corp is easier to bring on new people but a little

Yeah because we're because uh strip ethyls only supported C Corp back then maybe they are supported maybe they support LLC right now but back then it's only C Corp.

Well right because there's some I mean it it depends on the business but there's can be some tax advantages to an LLC but if you want to have any employees or sell yourself you have to be a C Corp.

At Quizlet we were an LLC for a long time at and then we were a top 100 website and still an LLC so that was interesting working with the CEO on that transition.

But it's easier to go from an LLC to a C Corp than back.

But and I see also I mean so BREX charge card um people outside of San Francisco may not know what that is but that sounds also like a a smart hack for a small business can you explain what what that is

Yeah uh yeah so I I I had uh I I have the BREX cards um because they they also give me 5,000 AWS credit on top of whatever credit I get.

It's it yeah it's it's interesting because it makes sense if you're stripe that you you have more financial debt data than you'd ever want.

Yep.

But maybe I guess that's an advantage being in San Francisco you're uh surrounded by these best practices or well you're surrounded by these good offers I should say right for all the needs

Because I I found that on the internet you can find a lot of very high level uh startup advice or you need to go to product market fee you you you need to do this do that they are very high level very abstract in terms of concrete advice is okay where do you get an office where do you get a credit card where so which bank is is is better for small business something like that it's very hard to find answers.

Yeah um yeah well I mean that I that's something that um I mean so you've been doing this over two years.

I mean for me last year so I've been now doing books and teaching full time and I probably had to spend two or three months just on my business setup last fall which was deeply frustrating but you know many of these things you list here, you know, setting up my bank accounts, you know, credit cards, all this stuff is uh just you know you

So I wonder you know for you now I I was gonna ask you do you feel like you have things sufficiently automated now that you've invested in all these tools or is it still

deterministic right nowadays it's 2019 now if you want to build something build website build an app you can build it you can build yourself or you can outsource to hire contractors to build it but business is very non-deterministic there's no guarantee that you follow certain playbooks, you can make money.

Uh and marketing is hard.

I'm still figuring how to do marketing yeah so yeah yeah.

So I spend and and and a lot of there are a lot of many operational tasks you need to do.

For example, every day I spend one third of my time just replying to emails.

I mean it's like how do you yeah it's like you need to have the information and you want to engage with your users, but you you know, it's like what did I do today?

It's it's it's uh

Uh yeah.

That's good.

So what's what's the positive take on it?

Because you learned something from it or it's because it's personalized, like

yeah, sure.

Well, uh, I I feel like I'm opening a small restaurant and I know all my customers.

Well, they they can talk to me very easily.

So if you go to website, go to listen notes, you can see my email address is on every page at a button.

So anyone can reach me, they get answered from me directly.

And typically they get they get a reply in a few minutes.

I reply email very fast.

Uh yeah.

That really because they they have a connection with you.

And that you can offer a service which no way some giant competitor can be.

Yeah.

Uh if uh something, something, something goes wrong, I need to find a context.

Yeah, it's typically buried very deep.

And you when you send email to them, you get a ticket.

Yeah.

Oh, the the they assign a ticket to you and you reference to this ticket number.

Then one week later you get a response from them.

Uh it's very frustrating.

And then when something goes wrong or a competitor shows up, you don't feel any loyalty because it there's no person on the other end of the line.

And I guess too, your service, um, it's it, you know, once you have a customer, they're probably gonna stay or grow, which is nice.

I mean, uh

I hope so.

You know, it's not you're not selling you know a book where someone buys it and then they leave almost for forever.

Um so you yeah.

No, that's great.

I mean, that's the kind of things that um it's hard to, you know, as engineers, it's lots it's hard to quantify the value of responding to emails and engaging with people, but it it I think it has all these incredible benefits.

Um I mean, because I'm constantly being advised by some of my business friends who I, you know, say I spend a lot of time on email, they're like, what are you doing?

You know, hire someone else to do it for you.

Um and maybe there's some truth, but I think it's it keeps you in touch with your your your users.

Exactly.

I want to do it in person.

Yeah.

And so in terms of other operational tasks, um, I built a bunch of internal tools connecting to Slack.

So I'm using Slack.

Uh I don't talk to human beings on Slack.

But uh on Slack, I get notifications when some events happen.

Like some podcasters that want to delete their podcast from our database.

Okay, I get I get an alert and I can do everything on Slack.

I can run commands and the podcast is deleted.

I can look up a particular podcast.

And when new podcast is submitted to listen notes, I get notifications from Slack.

I can see the basic information for the podcast, the podcast images, the podcast title, uh the sample audio, so I can get a sense whether this is a legal podcast and I can approve right there.

So if I am on I'm on a go, I am on vacation or something like that, I can do work on my phone because I I can use a Slack.

But it sounds like you've automated Slack so you you can relax because you don't have to worry about it, I guess, as much.

But you're still getting

notifications, right?

Someone wants to delete their polar cost.

Uh well, I need to make sure this is the legit uh uh person.

It's not it's not a random person on the on the internet who wants to delete Joe Logan's polar cast.

Well, I cannot do that.

So yeah, yeah.

I like how you've used Slack for that.

It's it's kind of like a bash shell but uses more memory.

Yes.

So well

I like that.

Um are there any any last things you want to um mention or talk about um before we before we wrap up?

I mean I'm so impressed by what you've built single-handedly here.

Yeah.

Uh I nowadays I get more information from Polarcast than from other uh media format.

I I put on my ALPs all day long.

I listen to Polarcast all day long.

Uh so on listen notes, uh I uh I have the playlist feature.

So you can curate episodes to playlist.

You don't need to subscribe to podcasts, you can just add individual episodes to playlists.

So I have a master playlist with 2500 episodes in the over the past two years.

So uh I listened to a lot of podcasts.

You can subscribe to my to my playlist if you want.

Yeah.

Uh Carlton, anything you wanted to add?

I just uh you know what a super chat.

I mean, it's lovely to go talk with you, to go through your stack, how you're running it, and you know, really nice and realistic and ground, and it's just you and you've got you're able to run such actually quite a big installation single-handedly.

That's thank you.

It's just you, so you remember these steps because sometimes we interview people at bigger companies and they weren't around or they didn't decide, so they can't speak to that process of you know, from prototype to uh to scale.

When people ask a question, I can explain why I build this, what's the history of this particular feature, why I've made this decision, what are some educations that we don't handle right now, but they will be built in two months, something like that.

Well, maybe as a last question, so what what what should uh people look forward to?

What are some new products or features that are coming on listen notes in the future?

Uh that you want to talk about.

Most of the time it's just to uh uh iterate on existing features, adding new stuff.

Uh it's quite boring in some people's eyes.

Let me give you one example.

Like a search engine must have some uh filters, search filters.

When you search, you may want to fine-tune the search results, right?

Okay, how many search filters does Google have?

You go to Google's advanced search page, you can see a lot.

Let's say there are 50 different filters, right?

How many filters does this not have today?

Maybe seven.

Okay, 43 to go.

So basically, I so that today I build a new search filter.

Two weeks later I build another one.

Well, this kind of thing don't need don't don't move the needle much, right?

It's not it's not like I build a filter and then the web chair feet double.

It's not like this.

But uh it's it's a it's a process, it's a long process.

You keep improving the service incrementally.

Um yeah, making your user happy and making it useful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They want you, you want people to keep using it and then tell their friends, and those incremental improvements are what's gonna make them stay and recommend you.

Right, right.

Yeah, yep.

Fantastic.

Thank you so much for taking the time today.

Um, we're gonna have show notes for all the things we talked about, especially the article you wrote, um, which is really a fantastic run through of a one person startup.

So thank you again.

It's nice talking to you guys.

Okay, all right,

Bye.

Bye bye.