Transcript: PyCon US 2025 - Elaine Wong & Jon Banafato

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Hi, welcome to another episode of Django Chat. I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson.

Hello, Carlton.

Hello, Will.

And we're very pleased to have the two PyCon US chairs with us today, Elaine Wong and John Bonifato. Welcome.

Hey, thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks for coming on.

And I'm very excited. I'm going this year in May in Pittsburgh. I haven't been since 2019, actually.

So maybe we'll start with how did you two end up running this major conference that's one of the biggest in the world in the tech community?

We were asked really nicely.

Well, I mean, logistically, the chairs alternate, I think, right?

Like, is this your first year for both of you doing it as head chairs?

So this is, yeah, so this is the first year for us.

So last year, I was Marietta's co-chair, where she showed me the ropes and went, "Hey, this is how you, you know, handle a 3000 person tech conference."

I went, "I am no Marietta."

And I was like, "Hey, John, you like conference organizing, right?

I hear you love it so much.

You have a Discord community about it.

Would you like to join in on all this fun?"

And John, because he organizes conference chats, went, "Of course, love to be here."

So it's been a...

Us trying to handle 2025 with, of course, the lovely PSF staff, who are fantastic at keeping all the fun logistics of a lot of things that go behind the scenes organizing a conference that you never think about.

So that's how we kind of started.

It was Marietta asking me nicely, and I went, "Okay, this is way too much one person."

And then begged John, and John graciously agreed, which I'm very, very thankful for.

Very, very thankful.

So I'm just going to pick you up.

I just want to pick you up on that.

You said it's way too much for one person.

You think it is, you know, because like...

I, I personally think it is, but I also have, uh, my job went from somewhat reasonable to ultra demanding in the last year.

Um, for full context, I work in the news.

So my, my life went from, "Hey, I can, you know, do the stuff at night" to like being glued to like my...

computer and my alert systems to like, since we've had changing news every couple of days.

I'm also a Canadian.

So, um, US tariffs have impacted us greatly.

Yeah, right.

So that, that's so, so that, that's, that's the context for me.

And this is why I'm very thankful John is, uh, John is around to help pick up some pieces while I go and deal with the world at, at large.

Okay.

So you're two months out.

How are you two going with it?

How are you feeling?

It's, it's the runway comes in.

John, how are you feeling?

Uh, I'm, I'm feeling good.

I'm excited.

Uh, you know, I, I was, uh, so to add some extra context there, I, I was not co-chair last year, right?

Elaine was co-chair with, uh, with Mariota as chair.

And so I'm co-chair this year.

Um, and, uh, last year was my first PyCon US back since 2019.

Um, and, and, and we'll, you know, I'll, uh, I'll say this.

And, and I think a lot of people, um, will understand what I mean, what, when I do, uh, it felt like PyCon, right?

Um, and, and so that was, uh, I wasn't quite sure what to, uh, right.

I was a little frazzled first conference in a while.

Um, and then as soon as I walked into the expo hall, somebody saw me, he said, Hey, John, and I fell right into step.

Um, so, uh, you know, I'm, I'm excited to get back to that.

Uh, I, I'm, I'm still not back to my, my previous level of, uh, of, you know, conferences per year that I attend.

And, and, and that's where I get a lot of my, uh, you know, a lot of my energy to do other projects and things from.

So, um, I'm, I'm super pumped to be, uh, going back to Pittsburgh in a couple of months.

Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, things are, things are moving along, uh, you know, at this stage.

Quickly, all on track, all on track.

Um, you know, there, there've been, uh, a bunch of back on us announcements in the, in the recent weeks.

Um, and, and so schedules are online, things like that.

Um, which is always a huge milestone, uh, and, and, and very exciting to see because, uh, that's when it becomes real for a lot of people.

And I think because it's, it's basically a week, if it can be up to a week, right.

Between there's the tutorials.

The main conference with talks, the sprints, the job fair.

I think I'm missing something, right?

Like I know some of my colleagues are going for the full week.

Uh, I'm coming in for half the week.

It's kind of, it's kind of what you make of it, right?

I mean, given that it's just a big conference that is a week, if you want it to be.

Yeah, it's the 14th to the 22nd.

So, um, yeah, you know, over, over a full week, I think for, um, many folks who are coming for.

Just the core talks, uh, that's going to be, you know, three days plus, plus travel.

Um, but if, if you're there for tutorials and sponsor presentations and, and code sprints, um, if you're, if you're working on a, uh, a project that, you know, this may be one of the few times, um, a bunch of maintainers are on a room together every year.

Um, and so those sorts of opportunities are, uh, usually really exciting to.

Uh, to, to take advantage of, and if, if you're not aware that those things happen, uh, now you are, and, and you might consider staying a few extra days.

Well, 2019 was the last one I went to as well in Cleveland in that beautiful, huge, uh, center there.

And I remember just what you said, it feels coming from a Django, Django cons or hundreds of people versus thousands.

So on the one hand, it felt overwhelming, but as soon as I walked in, I saw people I knew, and then I, you know, there's the.

What do they call them?

It's not the lightning, the breakout sessions where people do the right.

You write on the board.

What are those called?

Open spaces, open spaces, right?

There was open spaces around Django and teaching.

And I know, for example, flask, um, the other Python web framework, uh, doesn't have a dedicated conference, but they're doing a flask con at PyCon, I believe.

So to your point, you can kind of find your community within the over, you know, umbrella of PyCon US itself.

Um, yeah, and there's even, even more fun, open spaces that are not exactly tech related.

Like I know every year there's always a juggling space.

Um, there's also kind of, um, I forget it was like silk, not silk, like aerobics.

I'm trying to remember.

There's one where it's just basically a lot of just interesting folks doing stretches and, um, and just having a nice hangout time.

So it's.

Uh, it's, it's really a choose your own adventure for a week.

So I, I've got a question about the, the organization and the, uh, and one is the talk selection, because I see a lot of posts about people have been selected or not been selected.

And I, as I understand it, there are like far, far, far, far, far more submissions than you've got spaces in the calendar.

Yeah, there's a, we are very popular, which is fantastic.

A lot of people love giving a talk at PyCon US.

We have a great team, um, led by Felipe.

Who kind of is in charge of kind of reviewing all the talks, um, giving a nice rating and, and then out of that, just kind of figuring out like the schedule itself.

It's, it's quite, uh, it's quite an experience.

If you had never seen a talk review happen before, I highly recommend volunteering for a future PyCon US, do some talk reviews and kind of see the nitty gritty behind the scenes of it.

Um, I am like, um, that team did a fantastic job kind of just weeding out.

Having to weed out a lot of really good submissions, all like, all of them were fantastic.

Some of them, okay, but a lot of them were, were just kind of like neck and neck and, um, and it, it was a bit of a battle, but ultimately, um, we, they landed on a set of talks that they were really, that kind of encompasses a wide variety of, uh, what's been happening in the Python, um, ecosystem.

Yeah.

Right.

And cause you can't just have like 58 talks all on the same, you know?

Um, microinternals of the Django ORM, like that, that wouldn't make a balanced program.

No.

So it's, um, well, we, we could, but it wouldn't be as fun for those people who, who would love a talk about Django or who would love a talk about flask or love a talk about audio.

Like how do I make audio using Python?

So just some of the things look forward to, or even like there's a talk that I'm kind of like fascinating by, which is like how to learn Japanese with Python, which is in the schedule.

This year.

So kind of a lot of interesting applications of Python and, um, and yeah, it's, it should, hopefully there's something for everybody.

Um, and I'm really excited by a lot of it.

I'm excited by a lot of the variety.

And also there's also a lot of variety, even in our charlist track, which is our Spanish speaking track, which has a variety of good technical talks as well.

Going in my Spanish is incredibly terrible by just judging by.

The titles itself.

Um, uh, it's, it's kind of a good variety of topics that isn't tied to just one section of Python by any means.

There's a lot of applications and a lot of best practices and yeah, I'm very happy this is live.

Yeah.

I've seen the, I've seen the charlas going through.

I really enjoy, I like the fact that you've got the sort of two language tracks.

I think that's a nice addition.

Yeah.

And that came out.

That came out of the, uh, the Python hatchery program, uh, which, uh, Elaine, do you recall what year that came out?

What year it graduated, I guess, is the, for lack of a better term.

I feel like it graduated, I'm trying to remember if it graduated in Portland, which might be like 2016 or a little bit later.

I mean, just triple check.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what the hatchery program is in general?

Yeah.

So the hatchery program, uh, is, is.

Is, I think the kind of thing that, uh, the size of PyCon really allows for, uh, right?

PyCon US is, uh, a bigger conference than, uh, many other, uh, Python based conferences.

And so, uh, it may be, uh, more people than you're used to seeing in a room, right?

Uh, uh, DjangoCon, uh, US is, uh, I think last I checked in the, in the like 500 person range, right?

Um, yeah.

And so PyCon US.

Figure six times that, um, and so as a result of that, uh, there's more opportunity, uh, and, you know, I'm sure DjangoCon US does awesome work, uh, and, and does, uh, exciting, uh, exciting, uh, experimental programs too.

Um, but, uh, PyCon US has the kind of physical space required to, uh, run some of these experimental things.

Like, uh, if you want to, uh, propose that something.

Be added to PyCon US as, as kind of a core offering like Charlus is now, um, the hatchery is a place for those sorts of events to, uh, kind of try out, uh, their, their initial, uh, couple run-throughs, right?

So, um, you mentioned earlier, uh, FlaskCon, uh, happens inside of PyCon US, uh, that's part of the hatchery program.

Uh, there's also, uh.

A, a community organizer summit for, uh, folks who organize conferences and meetups and all sorts of other, um, communities around, uh, the, the broad Python ecosystem.

Um, uh, and there's a, there's a, uh, humble data, uh, uh, summit happening this year as well.

So, uh, each year there's, there's a, a, a call for applications for people saying, hey, I would.

I would really like to organize an event at PyCon US, um, and there's a, the, a hatchery committee that reviews those applications, sees, uh, kind of similar to a talk proposal process, uh, you know, which of these, uh, are, are good fits for expanding the offerings of the conference as a whole.

And that's super because you get all the support and you've got the people there already and the things like the accommodation and the catering is taken care of.

So.

What you've got to focus on is doing your, the, the new thing rather than, uh, build it, bootstrapping a conference around it, which is no, no mean feat.

Yeah.

There's a lot that goes into, uh, uh, into conference organizing that I think is easy to, uh, easy to miss if you're not, if you're not thinking about all of those kinds of details.

Is it any easier the second year, right?

Because normally there's two years in a place.

I know you're there, Pittsburgh.

I could think on the one hand, some things are easy.

They're easier, but maybe also you don't go in totally blind.

You know, that certain things are going to be more challenging.

Uh, how does that sort of shake out for you?

Right?

Cause I guess Marietta or people who were on the ground last year, they probably hopefully give you some tips on how to improve it this year.

Yeah.

Like if it feels like last year was a great, um, I don't want, I hesitate to say dry run, but it's kind of like, like, kind of like, uh, Hey, these are all things that we can try.

And see if it works.

And if it doesn't, we can rearrange it for another year.

So, uh, so for example, Pittsburgh is a bit of a different layout than normal.

Um, it seems like you have to run through, like some of the talks are on the other side of the very large expo hall on the second floor.

So just kind of understanding that flow and knowing where to go really helps a lot.

Um, from year one to year two, knowing where to put information boost, because knowing where people were bunching up and getting lost last year.

And of course my favorite, which is like, where, where do you go when you lose something like having a, a lost and found that's easy to find was, uh, some of the things that, that was in my mind for this year, because I lose things all the time.

And of course you can't go to PyCon US without accidentally getting a lot of swag.

So now you're just like carrying out extra stuff.

So like you might actually forget something important, like your actual bag with your actual laptop and not like the nice bag you got with like 12 water.

bottles and like four t-shirts.

It's funny you say that because I'm going to be attending, uh, with JetBrains, my employer.

And so there's going to be all sorts of swag and that'll be my first time actually being behind.

behind the booth uh normally i'm just wandering around but instead i'll be planted you know doing

demos we're doing book signings with various python offer authors for example eric mathis

um some other people i'll forget off the top my head um so yeah i yeah i think i i think well i'm

a backup so if well oh come on will don't be shy no i am i am a backup no we have um gosh who oh

matt harrison um pan effective pandas and other books eric oh i think there's someone else but

yeah i'm in there as a backup if we really have to slum it i can talk about django but we'll try

to keep it python and data science um maybe actually that was a question i had for for both

of you so we're very tunnel vision we think the web is where it's at and you know within that django

but as the two of you look at the python landscape how do you divide it up because i know historically

pycons like way back in the day they were like they were like they were like they were like

back in the day web was kind of new and hip and cool and there was like a lot of django

and flask talks and then data science took over and now i don't even does data science refer to

ai and ml and data analysis like how do the two of you survey the ecosystem i'm i'm genuinely

curious because i i can't put a good definition on what python is used for these days other than

you know everything i think you answered it it is everything i like uh

john was like oh hey did you know that the pittsburgh pirates are using python

um to do analysis and i was like that's awesome but at the same time i feel like i use python

every day to do a variety a wide variety of random things i never thought i'll use python for i mean

i use python to program my remote because i'm too lazy to find my ir remote in the stand aid

like it's well i think it's it used to have the

the moniker of you know the second best language for everything but i think that's that's really

changing because all these ecosystems are developing around it right in the same way

data science used to be like i'm giving a talk actually tonight at the boston python meetup

around django and data science and one of the points i want to make as a

is i realize many people don't know what it was like 10 15 years ago where i remember being in

silicon valley and people doing data science they're using like r or like matlab and you know

ls even right python was this new thing and now people just assume python is for data science and

but like all these you know scikit and numpy and pytorch and all these things are they're so new

i think it can be lost that it wasn't always the case right like now it's just like oh yeah

python's for data science python's for everything but it's all these things have built up around it

i think because so many people found it easy to use and powerful enough um so that's that makes

me feel old

but actually hopefully it'll be interesting for people to be like you know i have this like

timeline both of web frameworks because they haven't been around that long and then yeah even

in data science like it just even 10 years ago you wouldn't say python was the default whereas now

the people i know especially i'm in in boston so a lot of people doing science anyone who's using r

which a lot of them still are they they sort of have this sneaking suspicion they should be

doing python so it's been an interesting transition yeah right well and that and then they're all like

i should learn programming because ai is going to take my job and i'm like you're a postdoc at

harvard what are you worried about but they have yeah anyways not to get off topic but

it's interesting that to see that you know to be old and to see that developed because

i'm sure that most of the people in the audience in their 20s are just gonna be like oh yeah python

like obviously it was always the case whereas like no there was this whole two to three transition

that had problems and there was existential questions and and yet here we are today but but i

think you got at the core of it which is that python is just kind of everywhere um uh elaine

pointed out um my my usual approach to uh like if i if i'm talking about a company in a python

context i'm like surely they use python somewhere right and when i say company i mean like uh

you know any any company right um if you look at some uh sponsors for uh lots of conference

is they're they're not necessarily uh the ones you would expect when you're like oh

there's a lot of tech there right um there's plenty of tech at uh at companies that are not

would not describe themselves as tech companies right uh and where there's tech there's you know

usually python um certainly there are exceptions to that but especially as right as companies

grow they gain some more tools in their stack and uh you know the the more of those they they use

the likelier at least one of them is going to be python right because it's uh if they're doing

uh data science ai um web development uh you know their their infra team a lot of the time

is going to be using python for uh or or a you know a uh an application developed in python

uh to to manage their cloud infrastructure and things like that so there's uh there's a ton of

different um contexts through which somebody might use python and i and i think that's one of the

bigger tasks for the uh the the program team right that the talk selection uh balancing all

of those different things and and making sure uh that everybody in the room has something uh

to to really catch their interest is uh is a an undertaking to to be sure i i want to ask the two

of you about what what you do in the sort of white in your wider contributions because john i know you

from um from mastodon or from the fediverse because you're always talking with jeff triplett

about um you know online chats we can't have a we can't have a podcast without mentioning jeff

yeah we've got to mention jeff yeah there we are there's your bingo card but you run this this

monthly meetup for the podcast and you've got to mention jeff yeah there we are there's your bingo

for people who um are organizing conferences right community organizers conference chats

yeah so uh uh so conference chats is uh a discord community that um spun originally spun out of the

kinds of things that happen at open spaces at conferences like pycon us and and pycon canada

uh and and everybody everybody does a everyone who who is able to provide a room for an open space

usually does so um and so there would usually be a

an open space like hey i'm a meetup organizer i want to talk to other meetup organizers i'm

a conference organizer i want to talk to other conference organizers uh i you know i'm here for

the python and that's awesome uh but i am looking for somebody else to uh to discuss catering

contracts with because that's uh you know those are the sorts of uh the sorts of things that go

into uh catering contracts and i'm looking for somebody else to uh to discuss catering contracts

maybe some of the the lesser seen uh aspects of behind the scenes of conferences

and so conference chats started out as uh really just a a calendar invite um it was you know later

in the year and i was done with the last conference i was going to attend for you know four or five

months and was like hey who wants to get on a call uh and jeff was there and elaine was there and

uh and and we talked about uh you know what's what's coming up in the world

of conferences um and that was late 2019 so that turned out to be pretty different from what we

expected um because i i didn't end up signing my catering contracts that that next year um and

uh you know i'm obviously biased here it's it's a group that i organized but uh i think it's a

it's been a really valuable resource uh especially for folks who were saying to themselves like well

you're going to figure out how to do an online event because we want to continue running this

uh and let's not do this in in a vacuum right let's talk with other conference organizers who

are trying to figure out how how they make this happen right um because conference organizing is

uh and you're going to have to cut me off at some point because otherwise i'm going to go for

your days uh conference well maybe can you list all the ones you're involved with right because

pie gotham and i i could i sort of gave up i saw there's too many you're involved with what is the

like bullet point list so i've been an organizer for pie gotham for for a long time um i i try to

volunteer in some way uh at any conference i attend uh and sometimes that's volunteering for

a uh a program committee um to to help with talk selection sometimes that's uh you know going and

uh stacking chairs at the end of a talk because uh people are trying to break down uh and everybody

wants to get home uh and and you know i i try to pitch in there too um i think the only uh two i can

really claim a you know larger organizational role in um uh our pie gotham and now pie con us

um but uh you know elaine and i i think

uh i say this a lot a lot of a lot of folks in these communities right we had been in a room

together before i'm sure uh but we we first actually met at pie con canada uh and and i'm

sure that uh that you know as soon as i got there i i said something to the tune of if you need

anything put me to work right so right hacksoft is your development partner beyond code from

custom software development to consulting team augmentation or opening an office in bulgaria

they're ready to take you to the next level

well and and then elaine for you your background is really interesting because you're

you have a media broadcast background and yet here you are in the python space for many years now

yeah it's uh i don't know if you folks ever seen the movie spotlight um yeah based on the boston

globe based on the boston globe uh so there's actually an annual conference for journalists

that kind of use computers it's called nicar it's like the national institute for computer

assisted reporting and one of the first years i went the boston globe guys were there

who were part of the original investigation and they were kind of just chatting about like that

whole surreal experience of like basically wow we spreadsheets investigative journalism like that

that's that felt so new back in the day now it just feels like constant um folks like uh at those

conferences at nicar like you're learning how to like

use your chrome inspector to scrape and like how do you make a django app to then like automate a bunch

of the stuff for you like it's kind of very fascinating we actually had one year um the

natural language processing folks came in and gave a talk about like how to like parse text better and

all that fun stuff so it's it's kind of like um when i was butting up going you know going through

the ranks of being a journalist like that was the most fascinating part for me was to say oh like

i can interview humans i can you know do

street

readers and you know talk to people but but this whole world of like oh there's you know magical

possibly magical data just lying around waiting to be exposed i was hooked and started learning

python because python was easy to get into there was a huge community for support not just with

nicar but also the python community at large that's when i started going to pie ladies

when i started attending python toronto anytime i had a question

this is the first community where like i'll be like hey i have no idea what i'm doing

and someone always would come up and actually in a very gracious and not in a mansplaining or

kind of like oh i i'm better than you type situation just kind of sat down and went what's

your question let me get you to that next step as someone who had no idea what they're doing

that was so refreshing and then going to pie ladies was even um a morning because it's because

um as some of these python meetups back in the day were quite large so like pie ladies were like

allowed me to get into a smaller group a more focused group and it was just all basically

everyone was helping each other and i think i think the good old saying is always that you

come for the language you always come for python but you always stay for the community

and that's how it all really began and of course much to what john mentioned like how do you give

back right how like i would then go to conferences and i also will be stacking chairs and then

talking to people like how can i be of use so i kind of leveraged the stuff i'm good at which is

stacking chairs and wrangling people into rooms and telling people okay get out of the hallway

keynote's about to start and that's how i kind of transitioned into the whole conference organizing

section because um it was something that was a lot of fun and you meet a lot of great people

through this opportunity and i felt like i was trading like my ability to stack chairs for like

coding tips

which

is a fair deal yeah yeah that is the thing is that sometimes people wonder why they don't you

know no more people or have more connections and it's like you just need to do something right to

just at a conference or carlton i make the point a lot you know open source you know why do open

source like there's so many selfish reasons to do it not least of which is you just get in there and

you see where things can help and you meet people and that opens so many more doors than just i

don't know what's going on and so i think that's one of the things that's really important is that

textbooks encoder problems on your own right because it's ultimately i feel like there's a base

minimum of intelligence and aptitude and then above that it's just attitude like i always think

attitude trumps aptitude 99 of the time when a lot a lot of these events you'll end up you know

sitting down for lunch or whatever at a table uh and you'll maybe unknowingly be uh you know right

next to the author of your favorite python or whatever and you'll be sitting down for lunch or

dinner or whatever and you'll be sitting down for lunch or whatever and you'll be sitting down for lunch or

you know that that python podcaster you listen to all the time right and uh it's that's where i think

um you know that that that serendipity uh is a really big selling point uh for me and and i think

um if you're not right and it's it's hard for for a lot of people to really put themselves out

there like that like i'm

uh not a necessarily a socially outgoing person but uh but in those spaces i i have always felt

you know pretty welcomed and and been able to just be like hey i'm john let's talk about you

know whatever it is you're working on

these days. Uh, and, and you, you end up in, in rooms with people who are doing very exciting

things. And that's, uh, one of the things I personally get out of conference is a lot.

Well, I was at one point, I know you have something to say, Carlton, the,

the PyCon US, which the first one I went to, first PyCon I went to, the first meal was lunch buffet

and, you know, head down. I didn't know anyone. And I look up and it was Guido like two feet from

me. I played it cool. I just was like, gave a nod, you know, sort of like seeing like a celebrity.

I went, you know, and then I found, and then I, I was like, oh yeah, what's up? And then I

found some Django people, but I was like, oh, okay. Like it's to your point, like everyone's

here. Um, and everyone's accessible and it just humanizes things. And, you know, one, one of the

things I'm sure you, you both are familiar with is the energy that you carry onwards. You know,

for Django, we have,

only a couple of big conferences and we really miss that during COVID we miss that energy. Like

things did kind of slow down. Um, so there's that whole, you come out of the conference and you're

both socially tired, but also I think energized, right. To finally do all these things that maybe

you were thinking about before. Yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a big thing for me. That's how

I get a lot of, uh, a lot of motivation to, uh, and, and inspiration, I guess, uh, to go and

work on bigger projects, um, to continue some of the project work that maybe came out of

conversations at conferences. Uh, and I see a bunch of people do, do the same kinds of things,

right. I've, I've been at conferences where, uh, folks have started a new open source project.

And they said, you know, Hey, I'm thinking about working on this thing during the sprints.

Uh, and if anybody wants to come talk about that, uh, you know, I'll be at this table,

uh, or, uh, you know, I've been at conferences that have inspired other conferences to start.

Uh, and, and that's super cool to see in a, in a very meta way of like, oh, I could bring this home.

Right. Like I, this is a great feeling. I want to have this in my town. Uh, and, uh, you know,

that's some of the, uh, the prouder, I guess, uh, weird to use that word, but, um, yeah,

situation.

This podcast is exactly that. I went to my first Django con. I met Carlton and I went,

wow, that's great. I wish there could be more of it and everyone could have it. And at the time

there wasn't a dedicated Django podcast. And here we are six years later, still talking about it. So

that's one child of a conference in a way. Yeah.

I think proud is the right word. Like you see these things and you can be like, yeah,

that's, that's grown a bit. It's not, you know, it's not proud in the, in the pride sense, you

know?

And it's just, you know, I was part of helping bring that to be. And that's lovely. Can I ask

you both? So you've both been involved in conference organizing right through the COVID

pandemic, right through the online only phase. And we're back to in person conferences. What,

what do you think were great things about the online experience? And then what do you think

they, they, they lack in then? And what can we learn going forward?

That's a hard one because I feel like both were serving very,

very different purposes. I mean, during the online years, it's just, we could still stay

connected, right? It was still something to look forward to. And knowing that I will bump into at

least two or three of you online for sure for those couple of days versus, oh, you know, time

zones and things get busy. I like, I purposely block those days off so that I know I'll be

spending them talking to Will or Carlton or John, right? But there's just some, something about the

energy of in person. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really

important thing. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really

important thing. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really important thing.

person that I can't put my finger on is just something magical about hearing someone just

scream from across the hallway because they haven't seen you in the past year and say hello,

right? It's like, oh, or like being able to just meet brand new people from around the world that

might, you might not ever approach, but you just happened to because they were standing in front

of you in the buffet line, or you're just walking down the expo hall and you turned around and you

made eye contact with someone. And all of a sudden it's like, hey, it's like, hi. And, you know,

realizing that you're now found the other random data journalists from another part of the world,

like Germany, and you're saying hello to each other for the first time, right?

Or a human being behind an avatar that you engage with regularly. So, oh, you're so-and-so.

Yeah. Or like, you know, or, or even, you know, the PSF, the folks in the community are all

kind of like big jokesters as well. So like last year they had like the varying sizes of the

fans that they could take a picture with. So there's also a lot of just fun Easter eggs kind

of making, poking fun at, at ourselves, but at the community as well, but also like using it as

that, that leverage just to like be that icebreaker to meet someone or just something to even post

back home where someone's like, oh, you met Guido? And you're like, yeah, he's like three feet tall.

But, but also like, it's such a fun community in, in, in that like, within person, like, like I think

you're also like trading stickers and chocolate and like, it's kind of an interesting way to kind

of randomly just be like, hey, would you like a bar of chocolate? Like, oh, great. Thanks. Who are

you? And, but it's just like, even the bar of chocolate, it was just like, it was very nice

meeting you. And then, and then it was like the person's name and, you know, wishing me a very

nice day in which I thought was the nicest thing on earth, because who, these are things that you

don't think about when you come to the conference, right? Just like the overall niceness, the fact

that people are just genuinely happy to be there. Like it's, I, to me, to me, it felt like I never

been to overnight camp, but I'm assuming this is the equivalent of going to like an overnight summer

camp for a week where, you know, there's a bunch of fun stuff that's going to happen. You're seeing

all your good friends, you're going to meet a bunch of cool people. And in the end, there'll

be probably a little bit of shenanigans if, if you feel like it, or you're happily just reading a

book in your bunk at the end of the night. Yeah. But that's kind of like the energy of in-person

that it felt like I couldn't replicate as much as I wanted to online. Like it was really nice

knowing that I could see a lot of my friends that I couldn't during those years, during the COVID

years. But there's just something, I don't know, maybe it's just because the whole screaming down

hallways, something I'm very excited to do. And now you'll probably hear me screaming a lot

at PyCon in Pittsburgh where I'm just like, Hey, lovely to see you all.

That's going to be hard to be read. That's going to be hard to replicate online,

right? Yeah. But they don't have to be the same, do they? I mean, they can,

the two types of events can serve different needs. Oh, for sure. Definitely. And like for

first folks who can't make it like online is a lovely way for, for it to stay connected

and being able to still be part of a community doing, um, and, and, um, and still be part of

PyCon US. What about for you, John? I assume something similar or, uh, yeah, I mean, I would

kind of qualify this, uh, as, um, right from a personal organizer perspective. Um, I do get a lot

of, uh, a lot of energy, like, right. The, the night before the conference starts and we're

setting everything up and, uh, you know, it's, it's this giant room that's empty right now,

but it's going to be standing room only tomorrow, right? Those are,

so those are some special moments. Um, and, and that sort of thing is particularly hard to,

uh, find an analogy to with, with an online event. Um, especially from the context of,

uh, the ones that I've been part of have been primarily like prerecorded talks, uh, because,

uh, you know, there, there were opportunities to, uh, to,

uh, do some, some post-processing and, uh, lots of, uh, you know, audio and video things that are,

uh, that are relevant to, uh, to posting something on a, on a platform like YouTube,

um, rather than just a live stream. Um, uh, so as an organizer, some of that, right, gets dragged

out over a longer period of time because it's not just, Hey, everybody show up here for, uh, you

know, whatever it is. Uh, and, uh, right. All of that energy is like really packed into a smaller

timeframe. Um, but at the same time, uh, I, you know, online only events, uh, are, uh, really a

joy to be a part of too. Um, and, and they let me meet people that I would have never met before

because we're just not in that same kind of like conference circuit, right? I have a bunch of,

uh, conferences that I'm used to attending. Um, right. And some of the, the online ones mean,

um, you know, I, I still try to block out my calendar for those days, right. Cause it's,

uh, hard to attend a conference and, uh, and be doing something else at the same time.

Um, right. If, if you've got stuff going on at home or, uh, or if it's like,

I'm going to watch talks during my lunch break, um, whatever that may be. Uh, so I still try to

those times, but, uh, it means I'm not worried about, uh, the additional travel time and the

travel cost. And, uh, you know, it's not cheap to stay in a city that you don't live in for,

uh, upwards of a week. Right. So, um, I think both have really important places. Um,

uh, and, and, and we need both, both styles of events and some events, uh, will be,

uh, you know, we'll offer both things and, and some are online only and some are in person only.

And there are, there are valid reasons for all of those things. Um, uh, there are also,

uh, you know, PyCon US, uh, does videos and tries to turn them around quite quickly. Uh,

but there are conferences that don't have videos. And, uh, I've heard from speakers that that is

maybe a less intimidating format in which to give your first conference talk. Right.

On the other hand, it's a lot of work to do a talk. So it's sort of nice to have

something for posterity, uh, as well. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really about, um, you know,

what fits your community's needs at that time. Right. Sure. But it is, it is scary that it's

live. So if something happens as opposed to a YouTube video, so I definitely see

both sides of that. I did want to ask, I know we're, I guess we're at 40 or so minutes. Um,

for conference goers. So you're both not just veterans of attending, but organizing,

you must have tips for people who this is their first conference, or maybe people who

have attended conferences, but are new to PyCon US. First and foremost, comfortable shoes. You'll

be walking a lot. I guarantee it. You don't think you will, but you will trust me on this one. Um,

it's going to save you so much, especially since you'll be going back and forth, um, in the

expo hall for, if you're just staying for the talks three days, if you're staying for more

three plus days, and there is a lot of travel because there's a lot of rooms and a lot to get

to and a lot of things to see. That's my big one. And then also, uh, this is not a super,

this is, sorry, this is a super casual conference. Uh, don't worry too much

about bringing your best business suit. Um, if you are the most comfortable in the business suit,

you're more than welcome to wear it, but this is pretty much a t-shirt hoodies type conference

pair of jeans. So, um, don't feel like you need to dress up. Um, unless you're going to the job

fair, then I, then yes, try to dress up a little bit for the job fair. And also, so like put a

blazer on, yeah, just like, just, just looks like slightly, slightly, uh, you know, a little more

professional than you, but, uh, but I don't think, I don't think the recruiters will really fall to

you too much if you show up.

In a hoodie, um, they do know they're recruiting software developers, right? So there's a sort of,

yeah. Yeah. So the election bias, yes. Um, it's also on day three of talks and

right. Uh, you know, you, you've been, uh, thoroughly overwhelmed by all of the, uh,

the excitement and, and, uh, the new information you're, you're learning from everything. So, um,

it's, uh, the, the job fair and the, uh, uh, and, and the poster sessions, uh, are, are awesome

events. Um, uh, but try not to do too much, right. Throughout the, throughout the conference,

because it's easy to, uh, easy to overdo it, especially if it's your first event.

And it's long, right? It's a marathon. It's, it is a three-day marathon. That is absolutely

correct. The talks are recorded. So if you're like, oh my goodness, I have to watch this.

Or this is never coming back. Don't, don't worry. Don't, don't worry. All the main talks are being

recorded. You can, you're more than welcome to take a breather, go outside, breathe some fresh

air, take a walk, sit quietly. It's, uh, it is very, it can be very overwhelming if you're not

used to a lot of people. It is, um, a lot of new people, super friendly people. So always,

and don't forget to always take a few minutes, drink some water because staying hydrated,

it is very important. Um, in the, we do have nice snack times in the expo hall. So please take full

advantage of the fact that you should eat regularly. Don't forget to eat. Don't forget

to drink some water. These places are quite big. So bring a sweater, bring something to keep

yourself warm. They do get a little chilly, especially when the room is supposed to fit

3000 people, the ceilings are quite high. So you will get a blast. Nice place to stay.

There's a blast of cold air every once in a while.

Well, that was a lesson, you know, taking breaks is a lesson Carlton and I had to

learn at DjangoCon in San Diego. Cause the first time I went, I don't think I left. I basically

didn't leave the hotel the whole time. Everyone's like, Oh, you're in San Diego. What'd you do? I was

like, I went to talks and I like, I didn't leave the hotel and then, but sort of realized, Oh,

I should have done something more. And we saw, or I saw online that, uh, E Durbin on the

infrastructure team had rented a bike and they were like, Oh, I should have done something more.

They can done bike rides every morning. I, you know, he's, um, they're a big biker, so

that's a good idea. So got a connection. And then the next year and the year after Carlton, I

was like, Oh, I should have done something more. And then the next year and the year after Carlton,

we'd go for bike rides. And then it grew to a couple other people, you know, early in the

morning. So at least we did something. We were like, okay, we saw the ocean, you know, it wasn't

just from, from the plane. So I've got, I've gotten better at taking those breaks. Whereas

the first couple of times I felt like I had to sit through every talk and then, you know, it's an,

it's an overload of things and it's fine to go. Yeah. Go sit somewhere and read a book for an

hour. If you need to, you'll find you actually meet people that way. Right. Cause you'll go

tuck into a corner and you're like, Oh, there's, there's Carlton. Yeah. I definitely did the,

that same kind of thing. At least my first couple, probably more, uh, events, uh, where I,

I would get out the schedule beforehand and I'm going to look, okay. And this talk slot,

I'm going to this one and I just have the full, full length of the conference completely booked.

And I think I got like two thirds of the way through the first day before I could

really not keep my focus.

Um, and so I, I try to write, paste those things, uh, and, and, and still, right. I attend as many

talks as I can comfortably. Uh, it's a lot harder to attend a talk if you're, if you're on the

organizing side, but when I'm an attendee, um, uh, you know, I, I, I try to seek out, uh, uh,

you know, as, as many as, as a reasonable for me, but everybody's going to be a little different.

And so, um, you know, I, I applaud that.

I applaud those folks who, who can really like keep, uh, keep up with every talk throughout the

conference. Um, that's a lot. Um, but, uh, you know, for sure, there's, uh, tons of, tons of

stuff on the stage to, uh, to, to go and check out. And, uh, PyCon has several tracks going at

once. And so, um, uh, you know, you, you should rarely be bored at a PyCon US.

What I teach each show is tame to me the other day.

That, uh, in Buddhism or in Tai Chi or whatever, there's, they have 85,000 different forms of, um,

this exercise that you can do. And the point of having 85,000 is that you can never do them all,

right? You could, so there's no point trying to stress and be a completionist about it. You just

have to do the one you're doing nice and, you know, focused on that. And it's the same with

talks at PyCon. You can't see them all mainly because several are happening simultaneously.

So, you know, no matter how busy you are, you're not going to see them all. So chill out,

enjoy the one you're at, take a break,

catch up, but later, you know, there's, there's plenty of time for watching the video you miss

later. If, if I can, uh, flip the script a little bit, uh, and, and ask a question or two, uh, how,

how do you two choose which talks you're going to go, uh, you know, be in that front row for?

I'm going to go, I'm going to go, Will. Um, so you, uh, I, if I've, you know,

Will's going to give me the talk, I'm obviously going to go, you know, sit in the front row and

throw tomatoes, that sort of thing. Um, but then, you know, if there's a technical talk,

I'm particularly interested, I might go to that. Or if there's a talk that's on a topic that's

slightly, you know, left field, that's not, you know, that it's not right into my core

things I already know about, I'll, I'll go to that or quite often because it's an opportunity

to grow a little bit. It's an opportunity to see something a little bit different.

And, you know, whilst you can catch the video, it is nice to catch the talk live. And

I sometimes feel that that, that marginal difference, you get more on the talk that

you're less comfortable with as you sort of out of your comfort zone, you grow your comfort zone

a little bit. So I'll, I'll go for that. What about you, Will?

Yeah, same. I'm, it probably won't surprise people. I've always been a first row person

in school, in conferences. I'm unashamed of it and I will be there. So I go sit front and center,

give support. I usually, if it's, you know, if it's, if it's Carlton or someone that will break

a tie, if it's a 50-50, I'll usually go for something that, yeah, left of field, something

maybe that I'm not good at. But if it's a 50-50, I'll go for something that I'm not good at.

But I, isn't an area I know so well, or, or flip side, if there's like a deep technical talk,

I love to be there in person because the back and forth, the questions are really good.

But usually it's what, it's, it's the unexpected ones, to be honest, that I most enjoy. But I've

also learned, I don't have to go to every talk. So my first DjangoCon, I went to every, you know,

every single talk. I took notes because I didn't know about the YouTube videos,

you know, and then the next year I was like,

I'm going to do a bike ride in the morning. And I went to almost every talk, but there were times

when I went, there was a pool there, which I didn't even go to the first year. There's a pool

in the middle of like outside hotel. And so I went to the pool and then sure enough, like several,

like well-known Django people were there. And then we have a conversation and that's still part of

the conference experience. So I think to your point, John, like learning how to like dial it

down a little bit and, and pace myself. You know, usually I'll go out the first night or two and

then somewhere in the morning, I'll go to the next one. And then I'll go to the next one. And then

somewhere in the middle, if it's like a four or five day conference, I really enjoy just not

seeing anyone. Um, of course I usually split a room with Carlton, so I can't avoid him. But

aside from that, he doesn't count.

Kojo Idris has got this really nice line about having a self-care sprint. And he says that a

self-care sprint is the sprint that makes all the other sprints possible. And I just love that.

But I guess as organizers, you don't get a break. So hopefully after the conference,

there's some breathing time for maybe the two of you.

That's the hope. I took a page out of E's book and actually am driving with my bicycle down so

that way I can get in my morning ride as well. And, uh, and just kind of ease into, you know,

the nice warmup to the rest of the day. Um, the conference center is actually quite lovely. It's

near kind of like a nice path where you can do a bunch of bike rides. Um, and also walks along

waters. And if you didn't know this, you will now. Pittsburgh has a lot of great,

great bridges, so you can walk across the bridge if you like in the morning and then come back and

start your day at the conference center. And it's actually a very nice ease into the day. Um, and

yeah, and just had to plug the fact that like, there's going to be days where you're just like,

I'm, I need to get away. That's okay. There's lots of lovely things you can do in Pittsburgh.

There's that the Heinz museum is actually pretty much next door to the conference center.

And there's also the Andy Warhol museum. That's about a bit of a walk, not too far of a walk. Um,

and for those of you who love national league, major league baseball, like myself, uh, you can

probably catch a game or hopefully a game during the time that you're in Pittsburgh, which is what

I'll be doing. I hear, I hear rumors. There'll be a dollar dollar dollar dog night. So I'll be

eating a lot of dollar dogs. I should check the schedule. I hadn't thought of that. I live

a mile and a half from Fenway stadium where the Boston red Sox play. So I've learned that

they don't, after the game starts, they, they can't really sell tickets for much. So

sometimes I can just bop down and I'll throw in a dad moment. My 12 year old daughter is

part of a group singing the national anthem on April 7th against the blue Jays, Toronto blue Jays,

actually. So if you watch the game, yeah, I'll take a picture. There's going to be

40 or so kids, but the red head one's mine. So what else? So we're almost up on time. What else,

John, is there other things we should, we should have asked you, uh, what, what did we not cover?

John:

I'm looking at our notes here. I think we covered a lot. Um, uh, there's, you know, I'm, I'm sure

that we didn't list out every single thing that happens at PyCon US, uh, cause there's a lot. Um,

and, and so, uh, you know, I want to make sure, and I'm sure I'll still miss some here. Uh, but

I'm going to try, uh, we also have, uh, right. The expo hall is a great, great place, uh, to spend

some time, meet some of the sponsors who are, uh, supporting the community and helping make these

kinds of events possible. Um, uh, there are some, uh, you know, not, not just, um, uh, not just

sponsors, uh, as well. There are, there are additional booths, uh, who are staffed by, uh,

there there's a program called Startup Row. Uh, so if you're looking to see, you know, Hey, what's,

what are some really interesting, uh, events that are going to be happening at PyCon US?

interesting up and coming startups that are using Python, um, for, for their new businesses,

uh, go visit all of those folks. I had the, the opportunity to be, um, uh, part of one of those

booths one year, which is, um, a lot of fun. It's an interesting experience. Well, if you've never

done it before, uh, uh, you know, I got pretty good at, at, uh, saying the same like 30 to 60

second pitch, uh, uh, over the course of that weekend. Yeah. Well we're doing so at the Jet

Brains PyCharm booth, we're actually just now we have little demos. So it's, you know, it's a data

science demo. There's a web demo. I have to do the web demo. Uh, but I'm sure the first, like half

of the day, it'll be a little bit of like, Oh, what are people going to ask? And then it'll be

going, going into, um, you know, not Ram memory, but long-term memory with some of the things,

but really it's about me.

People, right. So it's, I imagine for you at the startup, right. If people come in and say,

what does the startup or, you know, ask you questions, you can answer them, but it's more

fun when they're like, how are you doing, John? Or like, you know, like the personal stuff,

right. That's, that's a little harder to replicate outside of a conference.

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's harder to replicate outside of a conference. It's also,

um, you know, I think at any of these booths, um, you're going to get an opportunity to ask

a question. You're not going to, uh, you're not going to get a chance to ask a question.

Uh, see like on the homepage of that company's website, right? Like, oh, what does your company

do? Um, like I can answer that pretty quickly by going to the URL. Uh, how do you use Python?

Right. Um, right. Are you built on Django? Uh, are you doing a bunch of machine learning work?

Is it, uh, is it that you are building tools for Python developers, right? Those are all,

um, kind of questions that you're going to get more than a tagline,

answer to maybe. Um, yeah. Uh, but, uh, there are, um, I'm trying, I'm trying not to leave off

things that happen in the expo hall. There's community booths. Um, uh, so.

Is there a Django booth happening or I heard rumors of one is something happening around that.

I'm hearing rumors too, but we will solidify that schedule.

Okay. We're still two months out.

There may or may not be a Django booth and you won't find out unless you go.

There definitely will be Django people there though, for sure. I'll I'm there. I'm stuck. I'm,

I'm at the booth. So come, you know, come rescue me.

And, and it's also, you know, it's a, it's a good place to, uh, right. If, if you're not

actively in a talk or an open space or a hatchery event or a summit or, uh, you know, doing an

impromptu organized fun run or, uh, a.

Strangely, uh, advertised, you know, dinner amongst a bunch of conference friends that, uh,

turns into a tradition year after year. Um, you know, expo hall is a good, good place to

hang out and meet some of those folks who, who are gonna, uh, you know, gonna be part of those

traditions. Right. And, uh, a lot of my, my best friends, uh, are, are people who I've met at

conferences over the years. Uh, and, and right. Um,

You just got to find one, one connected person. That's sort of a pro tip. Like as soon as you

find one, then you kind of, you know, like, like that, you know, so there's the Pac-Man

seating at Pycons and Django cons. You always leave a chair open. It seems to be that way

with groups too. Like, so I've noticed the first Django con, like I didn't know anyone. So I found

some people to do meals with, but it was more like, you know, I was at the buffets and then

over the years it became, you know, like, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going

more and more and more. And, um, and then sometimes you have the opposite problem where

you have to sort of say, no, I want to keep this to 10 people. Well, I mean, that's trying to get

a table. Well, it's tied to, you have to getting a table for more than 10 is hard, but also trying

to get dinner for 10 plus people is very hard all at the same time. And then you, and then sometimes,

you know, you say no, or someone else says no, and then you run and go to the restaurant and

they're there with a different group. And you're like, oh, I see how it is. You know, that's,

that's, uh,

we've had that at, we've had that at Django cons Carlton, right?

All right. So everyone should attend if you can website, we will get this episode out. So there's

as of now, two months until the conference, I think we'll release it. There'll be seven weeks.

So yeah, come it's big. It's not that scary. You'll find your tribe.

And, and, and if you need someone to hang out with further to introduce you, feel free to reach out

to.

Me or I'm going to volunteer John until John goes, what did you do?

But, uh, yeah, fine. Please find, find us. Love to say hi. I'd love to meet everyone who's coming

to PyCon US. Any questions, if you need to know where the washrooms are, hit me up. Happy,

happy to point you in any direction you need to go.

And, and if you're listening to this and it's, you know, June, you're like, oh, I just missed it.

Uh, there's a ton of other Python conferences.

And meetups that happen all around, all around the world, uh, you know, find, find your local one,

um, and, and go and, you know, meet, meet your communities there as well. Cause, uh, you know,

uh, PyCon US was, was not my first conference, right? It was a conference I, uh, I attended

after going to a couple of other, uh, Python conferences. And so, uh, there's, uh, and,

and now I, you know, make it a point to, uh, I try and seek out conferences. I have,

um, been to, um, uh, you know, again, travels sometimes hard, but, um, definitely, uh,

the Python community, uh, has Python communities, uh, are, are, are large spaces. And, uh, there's,

there's probably something happening, uh, you know, in your area. Uh, and, and if there's not,

there's a good opportunity there. Yeah. And it, it really is like, well, be it a Django comp,

be it a Meetup, it really is a gateway into the, into the wider community, into the deeper

community. I want to say like this, it is the routine. So nice to meet you both. I'll see you

in person in, in two months. Yeah. And thanks for coming on. And enjoy. Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Thanks for inviting us. Yeah, no, so thrilled. I mean, for Python people to come, you know,

hang out with lowly Django people, it's, it's definitely an honor. So,

well, we will have links to everything in the show notes. We're at djangochat.com

and we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

This episode was sponsored by Hacksoft, your Django development partner beyond code.

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