Transcript: Python Software Foundation - Ewa Jodlowska

This week we're joined by Eva Jodlaska from the Python Software Foundation.

I'm Will Vincent, joined as always by Carlton Gibson.

Hi, Carlton.

Hello, Will.

Hello, Eva.

I'm really excited.

I think this is the first time I've met you both, so I'm really excited to chat with you more and talk about the PSF.

So that should be great.

So maybe so quickly, your executive director, what does that mean?

And then I we want to get into how you came to this role at the head of the PSF.

So executive director, I mean, there's a lot of hats that are involved, but as an overview, it's pretty much oversight of all of our programs, managing our staff as well as working with our board of directors to ensure that we're following our strategic plan or whatever kind of plan is is at our feet.

So the PSF is a 501c3 nonprofit in the US.

Um, and we are comprised of uh board of directors who are volunteers, and now eight of us that are paid staff.

Wow, that's amazing.

Well, so you were as a consultant and then full-time role.

Maybe we can dive into you know, how'd you find yourself in your current position?

Yeah, absolutely.

I don't think uh there was any clear path forward to where I am today.

So it's always really interesting when people ask me.

So, how did you become executive director?

Well, uh in 2008, I started working for PyCon as a meeting planner, as a contractor for a company that I worked outside of Chicago here in Illinois, where I'm located.

Um, over time I decided I was going to move to Denmark and uh try my hand at a master's degree in computer science.

So then the PSF was, you know, still excited about keeping me on board for PyCon.

So they asked if I wanted to do it part-time.

So I did for a little bit.

Um, and that lasted a couple years, maybe not even a full year, um, before, you know, not just me, but everyone kind of involved realized that we really needed a full-time position to help with PyCon because that was around uh 2012, which was, in my opinion, probably the first year where PyCon really blossomed to the size that it is today when we were in uh Santa Rosa, California, Santa Rosa, Santa Clara, California.

Um, so then I joined the PSF and I became an official employee um at around that time and I worked full-time.

Uh the administrator that used to work for the PSF stepped away, so it was like a part-time position that I added into my position.

So that kind of got me involved into the PSF side of things and not just PyCon.

So that's when I really learned more about you know the whole ecosystem and the community and how it's like working with a board of directors.

Um, so that was a really interesting, um, interesting transition for me because it opened up so many other areas of the role that really interested me.

That wasn't just PyCon, if that makes sense.

Um, and over time I became the director of operations after we hired on some staff.

Um, and then uh I believe last year, or gosh, I can't believe I don't remember this.

I should remember such a great milestone in my life.

But a couple years ago I became the executive director.

So it's been more than 10 years at this point in time.

So I I have it in my head that you you're like kind of responsible for the fun driving the fundraising effort.

Um, largely

So that is now the person that's going to be in charge of our fundraising.

And of course, the executive director and the board of directors are always still involved to some capacity, and it will always be my responsibility in the end on how our staff delivers.

But we're really excited to have someone kind of spearhead that effort because that also opens up the door for not just corporate uh fundraising but also grant fundraising.

Um, you know, all the all the different things we could do with donation drives, and it's just we're we're no longer restricted on the resources that we put forth on that effort, which is really exciting.

We're obviously much smaller, and you know, we have the couple of fellows, I'm part-time Maris is full-time, but beyond that, it's fan funding Django girls, funding the Django cons.

And then it's kind of like what would we do to to to bring money into Django, and then what would we need it for?

And one of the things is sustainability.

Um, but you know, to look at at Python, the PSF, and see what the PSF is doing, it's like wow, you can actually get out there and really push push to bring him money.

Um, you know, to me, the biggest thing is yes, we can fund for I mean, William and I were just talking about, you know, funding one-off projects, and those are all great, but to have the structure in place of the staff that can actually support managing that kind of work and making sure it's done efficiently and effectively has really helped us, you know, to build from the ground up to be able to handle all that stuff, which I think has been very beneficial for the PSF.

I mean, so Carlton has helped lead.

We've done Google has a summer of code and a season of docs the last couple years.

I think I know we've gotten a couple other grants, but we don't do a lot of that in part because we don't think to apply, and there is that management capacity on top of it.

You know, they are giving you money for a reason and they want something to show for it.

So and actually, Carlton, maybe you could mention, I mean, I feel like your summary of code work is completely hidden from people.

Most people have no idea that you do anything on that, to be honest.

That there's an application process that takes quite a lot of time to to put into that.

That's not the the the hardest bit.

The hardest bit is then going through the many applications and trying, and we you know, we have capacity to mentor one or two people each year, and that's but you know, we might have a hundred applications, so you've got to try and do justice for those, and then working with them.

And you know, Maris has um worked with Sage, who did the JSON field um previous years, and I've worked with mentees, and you know, we we we get in there in that.

Not just small stuff.

Hopefully, this year we're gonna get a um a Redis back end in court.

You know, these are these are important things and historically Google it's historically good Google Summer of Code has been a big thing, but it's not it's not it's not free, you know.

It takes quite a lot of effort to to put that together, and that that's kind of the well, that's the trick, isn't it?

Is how do we how do we manage that on on a volunteer basis?

I mean I can put I'm I'm paid as a fellow, but I can't put so much time into it because I'm meant to be managing the framework.

So you know that's one thing I I kind of wanted to discuss with you, Ava, was yeah um the the sort of the non-code side of m of the PSF and the and lessons that we might learn for the DSF from that.

Yeah, I mean I think Because

I I think that Carlton, you you have a great setup with how you're supporting, you know, mentors and mentees and all that.

And I feel like you know, the PSF also participates on behalf of Python for Google Summer of Code.

Um, and our volunteers do a great job of that.

But I feel it's it's always about building a balance between, you know, how you're spending your work supporting volunteers, managing volunteers, and actually doing the work that you're supposed to be doing outside of that.

Um so we're kind of in this, we're also growing in that aspect.

And I know that you know, for you all it it might not seem that way because you seem to describe the PSF as a much bigger entity, but we do take a lot of things from you all, like for example, the the fellow role is something that inspired the PSF to recently um help CPython hire um uh we're calling it a developer in residence.

And so recently Google gave us uh funding to hire that position for a year, and we hope that during that year we can do additional fundraising to kind of help sustain that role.

Um but you know, it'd be great to provide that support for CPython to help manage some of the work for volunteers and to guide volunteers on the work that needs to be done, help you know, create a roadmap for Python as it might be, which is something that we've been lacking, or at least lacking in the visibility of um to the rest of the world, if that makes sense.

Like what the Maris and I do our best to try and uh communicate with the rest of the community, but like literally sometimes it's just Maris and I sweeping the floor in the closet, you know.

It's yeah.

And you know, since since you've been there, Carlton, Tim before, I mean Django has largely hit its all its dates.

I mean, 3.2 comes out next week next from when we record.

But you know, it's uh there's a reason why you and Marius are paid, and you know, it's not all not all the fun stuff you'd want want to do after a full day of programming.

Oh, I wanted to ask about so the that new position, Eva.

Um, so you're a nonprofit.

Django Software Foundation is a nonprofit, so we're not allowed to directly pay for code.

For example, Carlton is a community manager.

Um, how how do you guys work around that with something like a dedicated programmer position?

Or at least that's been our understanding of a nonprofit in the US.

Um, so we definitely do we definitely do pay for code, I guess.

I mean, so if we look at the grants that we've received for PyPI, let's use that as an example because that's ex you know, the warehouse uh launching rare warehouse code was definitely paying someone through a grant to do that, um, which is definitely within our rights as a 501c3.

So I'd be interested to hear more of where that restriction comes from for you all.

So maybe we need to talk to we talk to our attorney because that I mean Carlton that rings a bell for you, right?

I mean your contract.

Um whilst we're allowed to contribute as volunteer contributors, the DSF does not contract us to write software.

Um I don't know about uh you know I don't know I don't know the legalities of that.

I mean, I it sounds on the surface crazy and it's quite possible that we had it wrong or it's changed, but certainly it would make things easier if either of those is true.

So I'd love to learn more about it.

Maybe we need to have another podcast in the future where where we get together as a group and discuss that.

But um, I do know that you know the the roles that we're hiring for are also along the lines of community manager, project manager, but that's mainly because that's what we need.

But to hire developers in the future, once that structure is in place, uh that's definitely something on our radar.

So I'd love to hear more about it if we're not supposed to.

I mean, being a US nonprofit too, I mean, that maybe we can talk about how international both groups are.

So our current president is based outside the US, she's based in Africa.

Um, so that sometimes has some issues.

Like I think my, you know, a US address is used for filling out the nonprofit form.

Um, so I guess I say that as a way to maybe you could talk about how global the PSF is.

I mean, you're in Chicago, but Python and the PSF is very global.

Right now we have one in Australia, we have some in Europe, we have one in Zimbabwe, which also does come with um financial uh sanctions, especially for the PSF, which is a US nonprofit, you know, cannot send, uh we cannot send money to certain sanctioned countries around the world, which could be one of the obstacles.

Um, you know, as a US organization, we also probably can't hire someone that's outside of the US, at least not easily.

Um, so we do probably, you know, look to contract, you know, if we were to hire Carlton next round, we'd probably contract with Carlton versus hiring Naman as an as an actual employee of the PSF because you can't get benefits living outside of the US and whatnot.

Oh, okay.

But she's but she but she's not paid, so yeah.

Um, we have staff that is all within the US um at this point in time.

And the director, uh, sorry, the residents, uh, developer and residence and some other roles that we're looking to fill.

You know, if if folks come from other countries to apply for those, we'll definitely take them in consideration just as equally as someone has from within the US, just hire them differently.

So it's so it's all legal and and by IRS rules.

Because we're we're all just kind of software geeks, really.

And we don't really, you know, and then there's this whole legal layer on top of like, oh, we actually we've got to do it this way and we've got to do it that way.

Kaiser, who was also with the PSF for over 10 years and retired a couple years ago, and he was like our first accountant, accountant's light, I guess we can call it.

Um, because once we then uh you know transition to a full accounting staff, which there are now three people working at different time capacities, um, we're really dialing into those restrictions and policies, and it could really add up.

So, for example, we're going through our first financial audit this year, which is something that you actually, you know, opt into experience, which when people hear being audited, they're like, why would you want to opt in for that?

But as a nonprofit in the US, you have to go through that profit through that process in order to be able to apply for certain grants that are funded by government organizations.

It really is, though.

I mean, so DSF accounting.

So I'm the treasurer and I work with um Catherine, who helps me, but it's you know, we just we just do it on our own.

I mean, it's basically we pay Carlton and Marius, we give grants to conferences, we pay the legal filing to be a nonprofit, and that's about it.

Um most of our hosting you know, most of our hosting stuff um is donated and almost all of it, and sometimes things happen there.

Um there was something with Rackspace last year where they were doing things and um but we're fortunate that it's largely we have a dedic uh volunteer ops team that handles that, but it's yeah, it ha it has strains, but it's incredibly simple.

So like our accounting statement is yeah, we don't have three accountants.

Though certainly I'd love to not have to do that part of the gig.

That's you know, the I should say that the entire budget is under $200,000 a year.

So I think we're a little bit a little bit bigger in that aspect.

And that's probably why all the accountings, all the additional accounting tasks are needed.

So can I ask, where does that money come from?

Is it corporate sponsorships or individual?

It can't be individual membership.

Um so I think uh a large portion of that I have to account for our financial reserve, which has been a really big topic, especially since the pandemic hit.

So since 2008, when we experienced um almost bankruptcy, I guess you could say, um, because of the you know the market situation back then, the PSF really noted that, hey, most of our revenue comes from an in-person event, which is you know really dependent on socioeconomic factors happening around us.

Um so let's make sure we have a financial reserve in place.

So in case another market crash happens, in case you know, XYZ happens, we can still continue our operations through that difficult year.

And my oh my, am I really glad that that was in place for when 2020 happened?

Because six weeks before PyCon US, all of a sudden, you know, you're canceling the event, scraping all your contracts for any kind of fees or legal implications that you you need to prepare for, and just crossing all your fingers that you don't lose any money on it.

So we now have at least um a year and a half worth of operations that we can pay for in that financial reserve.

So that you know, we especially knowing that we've almost now needed it twice, in at least in my history of being with the PSF, which is only a half of the PSF existence, it's definitely something that, you know, I, for one, will make sure the PSF always takes consideration for, and hopefully all future board directors do as well.

But outside of that, um, we have you know our corporate sponsors, which is definitely the majority of the funding as well as individual grants that we've received.

So if we look at if anyone peaks, and maybe we can include a link in the podcast later on for when it's published to our annual report.

If you look at it, a lot of the chunks go to um packaging and PyPI.

A lot of funding has uh come in um from CZI recently, as well as the Mozilla Open Source Um Support Office has funded a lot of the work.

And when you receive you know money for $300,000, $400,000 uh worth of work in one year, that's going to be a substantial part of your budget for revenue.

So we have that that was something Frank Wiles, the previous president, was very good and focused on.

So we have um a year's worth.

Um, but at the same time, so it'd be that should be more, but we also are not as tied to an event in the same way that you are.

We have um there's the DEFNA, which um Jeff Triplett, who's works with Python, is on that provides funds.

And we have had a number of issues around DjangoCon Europe, in particular going virtual, and as you say, all those costs um that are borne by individuals.

So we've had the board has had to do a number of things around that.

But we're because I guess we're smaller and more flexible, it's not as big a concern, but it's still the concern, and you know, that's one of the big things is I would like us to get a year and a half sounds good, two years sounds better, you know, both in case something happens, but also um hopefully Python doesn't go away.

But if Django ever goes away, which it will, you know, that that's a graceful decline, it's not just, you know, boop, like we're done.

And so we need to have funds to handle that.

Absolutely.

I mean, hopefully not.

there's this Buddhist thing you like stare at dead bodies and watch them dissolve to like think about it.

You know, it's it's coming.

Anyway, so that's something a concern that we have to um can you uh let's talk,

Well, actually, well, so very quickly, just so Python versus PSF.

So on Django, there's a Django developers list and they do their thing, and the DSF has no direct control over what they do.

So we can't tell them to put a feature in.

Um, and those are very separate.

I believe it's similar with Python.

Can you just go over that distinction?

So I guess before I go, can you tell me does the DSF own any trademarks for Django?

So something else we periodically have to do is go in and enforce that.

But yeah, it's very rare.

It's the same for the PSF.

So yeah, I guess in in that sense, I mean, overall, if you know, all developers decided to really go against you know the policies and and good work that we've been putting forth, then that can always come into play.

But we have just like similar to to the developers list, uh, we have now the steering council, which um precedes the BDFL model, which I'm really excited about because that has really opened up the door to have a you know structured partnership alongside with the PSF.

So we can work with them to A, not only support the work that they need to be doing, but then once that work is kind of itemized and let's say you know prioritized, then we can help fundraise for that work.

So they're so they're supported in that in that capacity, which is really exciting and and partially why the uh developer in residence is is going to be published soon, hopefully by the end of this week.

I'm blanking on this.

I should I I I won't go into well so so the Django Project.com website, for example, that code is open source, it's BSD.

Um and was it Amazon, I believe, um gave us a heads up.

It was either Amazon or Microsoft that they're gonna be using it with a new skin basically for their for some big internal site, um, which they're allowed to do as long as they provide attribution.

But that's one of those ones where like, what is the copyright status of you know, we had to like double check because you know, while Django, they can't say this is Django, but you know, the code is for that site is open source, and if someone really doesn't like what the team is doing, they can go fork Django and maintain it them if they want to.

Same same thing.

Yeah, so you know, there was something on um uh NPM.

Someone had a Django package um on the called Django.

I mean it was inadvertent, but it basically like bundled Django with the JavaScript thing, and so we had to go in and say, you know, we need to own Django on NPM, but it's fine to have a third-party package.

So those are just the types of things we have to do, which I'm sure you're very familiar with.

Um, and it and I've actually been internally kind of trying to promote the amount that we spend on trademarks, it as to it, the official like, so I don't know, if you look at an annual impact report, expenses are s and and incomes are usually split up, and the way that you support community services is bundled up into something called programs.

And I've been trying to get trademarks to be bundled up into that just because we, you know, technically all the money that we're spending on trademark support and filing trademarks around the world is technically a community uh support system, right?

Like if if Python or if Django is is trademarked in whatever country, then it's just so much easier to make sure that it's reflective of the community and you know of the code that you all work so hard for.

I think it is the community side, and you know, things like the code of conduct and the inclusivity programs and all these stuff.

And without the DSF there to kind of play that role, the Django community, for all its goodwill, wouldn't be able to maintain it.

I think, you know, because you'd have bad actors and you wouldn't have the right the ability to deal with those.

So there's the board of seven of us that's elected every year, and then there's around 200 individual members that anyone can be nom, so you you nominate someone for that and it needs to be approved by the board and other people, but you know, if I feel like a lot of people don't know about that aspect of it because it's you don't have to pay for it, it just puts you on the list of the 200 people who who vote on the board, who sometimes if the board can't solve something will will ask for input.

Um, I believe there's so talk about the levels within the PSF.

And then over a period of a few years, that kind of expanded to kind of open it up for people to self-certify and not just get voted in by a group of people as a way to kind of open up membership to people all over the world and to help us diversify our membership.

And and I think it worked fairly well.

And and now we have several structures.

So we have basic, which is just simply signing up online and saying that you know you want to be a PSF member, and it just adds your name to the list of thousands of people that you know say that they want to be a member and support the cause, which I think is the easiest and simplest way to kind of support the PSF.

Um, outside of that, we have contributing and managing members, which then kind of breaks into the tier of folks that do vote on, you know, a board of board of director elections as well as any kind of bylaw changes.

Um people that we report our finances to, for example.

Um, and they are people that self-certify that they spend, you know, X amount of hours on something Python related.

It could even be maintaining Django, right?

Um, it could be uh core of core libraries, third-party libraries, um, it could be people that organize events, it could be people that um organize their their monthly meetups, whatever the case may be.

Um, and then we have the yeah.

It's not it's only like you know a five hours a month or something.

So if you're if you're involved in any project in the Django world at all, you you you reach that bar and you can be a contributing member.

And I think it's actually really cool that a member gets to vote on such things like board of elections and bylaw changes.

I mean, these are things that actually impact and shape how the PSF grow to be.

You know, the board of directors are selected to help us kind of steer how that PSF vote goes along the way.

Sorry.

So then we have, so I'll kind of uh interject with our only paid layer uh our only paid tier, and that's the supporting membership.

So we kind of say that those that, for example, might not have the five hours a month to contribute to our organization, but maybe they have $99 a year.

Um, and if that's the case, then we'd love to have you as a supporting member, and they also get to vote on PSF matters.

Um, we in the future hope to kind of change that up to not just be $99, just because $99 isn't the same value in the US as it is in Poland, for example, where I'm from, right?

Um so we want to be able to kind of be alert of those scenarios.

So hopefully in the coming year we'll kind of change that up.

Um, but the the last tier is fellow members, and those are probably most similar to what you all have, where we people get nominated and voted in by um our fellow work group, and it's probably like the most prestigious uh tier of membership that we have.

I don't know when this is gonna air, but it's probably not gonna air till mid-April.

Okay, so our membership drive will be over, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't become a member, and if they ever have any questions, they could always contact me.

So that's sort of a one-off that we've done for the last five or six years.

And um, again, because Django sort of exists to exist, that's our main, you know, our one of our main funding things, right?

We have that.

Then we have a handful of companies that are uh at the highest tier.

Um, but it's around, you know, I think 30, 40 percent is individual contributors, and then a solid 60.

So it's probably not as weighted towards corporate as a lot of places, but if we needed to raise more money, obviously going corporate one way or another would be a lot easier than people sure um donating.

So out out of curiosity, is the DSF structured that corporate sponsors are also members?

I mean so this is actually something that Carlton's going to be working on that the board has approved is that members they get a prominent place on the site.

They have a badge they can use but it's doesn't they they'll get a couple tweets it doesn't much go beyond that.

That's definitely something we're you know looking at in terms of giving them more and what that looks like.

So that's something you know Carlton with all his time as a fellow like for example Carlton's Carlton's been you know putting out 3.2 which comes out uh April 6th and then he's been working on stripe change all their billing so Carlton's been having to work on our our billing page and then once he's done with that Carlton can look at um integrating with GitHub sponsors which we've added last year but we want to show that and then also you know improving the corporate member experience.

So right now it's very manual but having it so that they can log in um and self-serve more than they do now.

like massively dominates individual members.

So for example I'm not sure if you've seen but we recently redid our sponsorship program completely where before it was just PSF and PyCon and now it's PSF PyCon, PyPI and C Python.

So now we have four buckets that sponsorship goes through.

So it's not just hey we want to make sure that the impact sponsors get is a you know improved especially since we're only having a virtual event this year we want to make sure that their impact is worth their time and money but also because it helps fund you know these two additional large you know smaller ecosystems of the Python community which is really important.

So we when we revamped the sponsorship program we did obviously had to redo the PyCon benefits because we've never hosted a virtual event so we're kind of we're you know it's been an interesting process.

We'll see how it pans out in May but our team is definitely has been you know learning all these new things that we've never had to deal with before and part of that is what kind of benefits do we give our sponsors so right now it is a lot of visibility on our websites whether it's pypi.org whether it's python.org whether it's you know on our jobs board jobs.python.org us.pycon.org we were we literally we wanted to make sure every aspect that we could brand we

could offer to our sponsors just because you know sponsorship is such a large chunk of the PSFs and Python sustainability.

But I think we do need to do more will on this so we do need to

I mean it comes down to to me to two things.

One is we're all volunteers and the second is we need a clear it's a little chicken and egg.

Like yeah we could go raise a bunch of money but until we know exactly what we go for and perhaps we're wrong about paying for software um but even so like we don't have that clear this is what we would do with the money.

Like in the past for new features like we had Postgres support was added um or Postgres full text search was a Kickstarter.

I mean it's it's so junior league.

So I like when I know you you're sitting there saying well there's all these things you want the PSF to be but where we're sitting we're going wow you're so high above us in terms of all your functionality um speaking of which PyPI I want to ask about that.

So that's truly internet scale and that's grown and that's probably where a bit of the funding goes to could you just remind people what that is and how much it's grown in the last couple years?

helped its progression over time and also show granters the kind of success rate that this group has had with grants that they've received.

They've done an excellent job with transparency, with reporting um you know following back up with grantors which is always a big thing and just flat out managing the work.

So that has been really successful and honestly we've used that success to help us kind of tell our story of other things we can do with grants which has led to additional grants which has been awesome.

Like we finally built that up so like being in Ariba and their payments and this, that and the other thing and then you know we could definitely do a better job talking about where the money went but there's a whole slew of grants that Django could get if we had the time to apply for it, mon you know, monitor it and do all those things that you just mentioned that you know if they're giving you money they they have it makes sense that they would want something back and sorting out what that is and being able to say here's an example of what we did in the past something I hope Django can do a little more of in

the future.

For example let's say we receive a grant for $3000 that needs to hire three people three contractors that we at that point have to have to track their timesheets how do we get their timesheets who approves their timesheets right all of that if we can automate that which our accounting staff is looking to do that would make the process so much easier because when pypi.org received some of its first initial grants that was all done manually by our by our team which is a lot of back and forth it's a lot of work.

roadmap over the next few years so one of the things that I maybe sort of glazed over but didn't specify more because PyCon is is such an up in the air kind of situation especially for 2022 will we be able to hold a 3000 person conference who knows um we are really looking to diversify our revenue streams and PyPI is one of those um focuses seeing what kind of functionality we can import import what kind of functionality we can add to you

know I'm sure it'll it will involve some sort of import what kind of functionality can we um add into pypi.org that makes it easier for corporations to use and things like that.

So that is definitely something that's in in our focus this year just because it is such a a grand tool for our community on all sorts of of levels you know not just individual users and open source projects but also corporate users.

know all of all of these great ecosystems and projects have grown kind of beyond the capability of a volunteer to manage and run.

So we're really excited that the PSF is kind of you know learning a page from from the DSF book and and putting money towards supporting those you know community managers, project managers, all that good stuff.

And we hope to be able to sustain that in the long run.

Well I know we're coming up a little on time are there any last things you wanted to mention?

I I did want to ask just as a last question um so I see sitting in the in the DS the DSF so many people doing kind of unseen work.

I'm I'm sure there are similar people in the Python PSF world and I'm curious what what sort of roles are those that you know people who are doing unsung work that they don't get the publicity for.

and it's it's incredible as well you know the rest of our staff and there are so many volunteers I mean we could sit just for an hour talking about that you know all of all of the programs that I talk about whether it's PyPI whether it's PyCon all of those take hundreds of volunteers to happen.

I mean no direct benefit um well to E.

So I wonder if that conversation you know helped that happen which I thank you for because I personally I I I appreciate markdown more.

So I have a I have a site learnjangle.com to plug it that uses markdown in the back end uh and there's so there's a package being used that does RST and markdown on python.org and I was asking why didn't you just do it raw basically and um it was to support both of those and then of course I was able to ask Jeff Triplett because he did the early version hey Jeff why'd you do that?

And so it all becomes very very very small.

So yeah I can't I'm that's

use the docs anymore you're just like Carlton

Like I guess I need to do some original thinking for a change instead of just googling for anyways um Carlton did you have anything else you wanted to

I like the fact that within our community it's you know open source but it's not just open source code it's open source information and how we can make these groups and projects be sustainable in the long run.

So I'm happy to talk anytime.

So Carlton too it's like yeah.

yeah yeah

That's right.

Yeah the episode that never aired

It's not

You know people that can commiserate and understand.

It's like it's like that every week you should

So we have links to everything in the show notes um links to your personal Twitter and people should listening should become Python members if they're not already for sure.

Definitely so thank you for taking the time really appreciate it and hopefully you'll see you PyCon virtually or in person soon.